Redefining Health as an Enneagram Two with Dr. Shelley Prevost
Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, the weekly podcast where we go beyond Enneagram theory and dive into practical understanding, new clarity, and fresh insight. We’re talking about how each type is in REAL LIFE so you can remember – you’re more than just a number.
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Dr. Shelley Prevost, Co-founder of Big Self School, a personal development studio focused on supporting the mental and emotional well-being of leaders, teams, and organizations. She is a licensed therapist, educational psychologist, leadership coach, and Enneagram practitioner. She has 25 years of clinical and coaching experience combined with 10+ years as an early-stage investor and startup executive to help create workplaces where everyone can thrive. In this episode, she shares fascinating insights into her experience as an Enneagram Two and how she approaches inner work for herself and professionally with others.
Find @bigselfschool on all social media
Listen to The Big Self Podcast
Looking for our key takeaways? Jump to them here:
Rediscovering the Enneagram as a tool for thorough inner work [09:57]
Exploring Shelley’s subtype and the role it plays in her life [15:17]
Identifying the passion of pride & moving toward the virtue of humility [28:41]
Shelley’s professional journey as an Enneagram Two [34:01]
Resources mentioned in this episode:
The Passions and The Virtues of the Enneagram Blog Post [02:22]
Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy [02:54]
The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Don Riso & Russ Hudson [08:03]
The Complete Enneagram by Beatrice Chestnut [15:32]
This Week’s Guest Pick:
As an Amazon affiliate, I may earn a small commission from qualifying purchases. Affiliate links are a simple (and free to you!) way to support my work 😊
Enneagram Resources for you!
Want to keep the conversation going? Join me on Instagram @ninetypesco to keep learning and chatting about how our types show up in REAL LIFE!
Learn more about subtypes! Download my free subtypes guide here.
Want to keep learning? Join my Enneagram in Real Life course to start applying all this Enneagram knowledge and start GROWING! Check it out here: https://www.enneagramirl.com
Want to stay up to date with all things Nine Types Co? Join my email-list and receive Enneagram reflections, thoughts about growth and personal development. Plus, you’ll get priority access to new offers and courses! Sign up here.
Not sure about your type? Get my free self-typing guide and a series of six emails to walk you through the whole process. Begin here: https://ninetypes.co/selftyping-guide
Listen to the Episode
Read the Full, Unabridged Transcript
[00:00:00] Steph Barron Hall: Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Barron hall, creator of Nine Types Co. on Instagram, author of The Enneagram in Love, accredited Enneagram professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you. Be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram in your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now on to the show.
[00:00:38] Hello. Welcome back. I am so glad you're here. I am really excited about this episode that I have for you today. I have really been loving- you know, just interviewing different people about their experiences and what it's like to be each type. And I specifically have loved talking with people about some of the different nuances within the Enneagram.
[00:01:03]Today's guest, we have Shelley Prevost, and I'll get a little bit more into who she is and her bio in a minute, but one thing I love so much about this conversation was how she so beautifully and vulnerably shared about what pride really looks like for Twos. If you're not familiar, each Enneagram type has a passion or what we sometimes call an emotional vice. And these passions or vices are kind of a core part of who we are within our type. So it's really a core part of the archetype of each Enneagram type. And talking with Shelley was so impactful for me because she shared a lot about, you know, behind the scenes, what that has looked like for her, how she's experienced it, and how she's kind of processed through it in her own way throughout her career and the different things she's done. And I just really admire the way that she spoke about it. I think it'll be really helpful for a lot of Twos to hear this. And also people who love Twos because she gives us a different perspective and a different kind of clarity on the archetype of type Two.
[00:2:14]If you're not familiar at all with the passions. That's totally fine. I know a lot of people aren't, especially if you're a bit newer to the Enneagram. So I have a blog post about that. Up on my website that I wrote with a friend. And so I highly recommend. Going and checking that out, just reading through it. It's pretty brief, but I think it'll be really helpful as you're trying to kind of understand a little bit more about each of the Enneagram archetypes. So all nine types are within that blog post and you can find the link in the show notes.
[00:02:44]I first met Shelley a little over a year ago when we were attending a course together actually, or- I mean, it's a certification course. We are both part of the Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy, which is if you're familiar with Beatrice Chestnut, she and her business partner and co-author, Uranio Paes. They have a certification program that is really incredible, I think. It really focuses on inner work. For the person who's going through the program, right? So I think that's really unique. In the sense that I have looked at other programs that just don't have that same level of focus. On making sure you, as the coach are developing that. So, that's where we initially met, but we've just kind of been in contact and I was a guest on her podcast and we're in a book group together and all of these different spaces, it's been really fun and interesting to get to know her because I think that the way that she talks about herself and her type is just so clear. And she also shares a lot of tenderness, a lot of care, you know, for herself and working through things with self-compassion, but also for others. And so that's just a really beautiful perspective to be able to learn from today.
[00:04:01] So, a little bit more about Shelley. Shelley is the co-founder of Big Self School, a personal development studio focused on supporting the mental and emotional wellbeing of leaders, teams, and organizations. She's a licensed therapist, educational psychologist, leadership coach and Enneagram practitioner. She has 25 years of clinical and coaching experience combined with over 10 years as an early-stage startup investor and startup executive to help create workplaces where everyone can thrive. And in today's episode, you're going to hear a little bit more about her perspective and the ways that she thinks about team building and culture and those sorts of things. Again, this is something that I love as well, So we kind of geeked out on it a bit, but I think you're really going to enjoy it no matter where you are. And also this is something I always preach, but any type can be a good leader. And Shelley today shows us how Twos can be an incredibly strong and vibrant leader in the workplace. And I think you're going to love her. So without further ado, let's hear from Dr. Shelley Prevost.
[00:05:09] Steph Barron Hall: Before we get into today's episode, I want to talk to you about subtypes. Now, subtypes have been transformational in my own Enneagram journey, and they've also been so incredibly helpful for my clients and my core students, and even some of the teams that I've worked with. So with that said, I want you to head over to the show notes or go to ninetypes.co/subtypes and download my free subtype guide. You'll get a breakdown of what the whole word means, the entire concept, all 27 subtypes, and you will unlock this new understanding of yourself and the people around you, and you'll have a new way to apply the Enneagram in your daily life. So again, head to ninetypes.co/subtypes, or check out that link in the show notes to learn more. Enjoy.
[00:06:01] Steph Barron Hall: Well, Shelley, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad you're here.
[00:06:06] Shelley Prevost: Thank you for having me. It's so good to see your face, kind of in real life.
[00:06:12] Steph Barron Hall: I know. Yeah. It's so fun because, so we met, was it last spring in CP Enneagram?
[00:06:20] Shelley Prevost: Mm-hmm, one of the classes and I'm not even sure which one it was, they all blurred together.
[00:06:26] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:06:27] Shelley Prevost: And were we in the retreat together?
[00:06:30] Steph Barron Hall: No, I haven't done the retreat yet. uz I've been waiting for it to be in person–
[00:06:34] Shelley Prevost: Yeah, that's a good idea
[00:06:36] Steph Barron Hall: and then it got filled up.
[00:06:38] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. And worth the wait. I would think, to do it in person. yeah.
[00:06:42] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, honestly, I mean, this is just diving right in, but like knowing all about like the deep inner work of our, of this program, I'm like, you know, I'm willing to like take my time a little bit with it and make sure that I'm getting the most out of it that I can.
[00:06:58] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. Yeah. And I've been, I guess my first class was last November, so I've been doing this over a year now, just the program, and I agree, like this is something that we can't rush. We have to be patient with our own process. So I'm just letting it be what it needs to be as I get to things.
[00:07:19] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. It's very against my nature. But, and maybe yours We'll talk about that. but yeah, super, super necessary to, to be stretched in that way.
[00:07:33] Shelley Prevost: Mm-hmm for sure.
[00:07:35] Steph Barron Hall: Well now that we're like diving right in, I would love to hear how you discovered the Enneagram.
[00:07:42] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. So I first heard of it in 1998 when I was in, up at Wheaton college, getting my master's in clinical psychology and happened upon the Russ- the, I guess it's like the main Enneagram book at that point, Hudson and Riso's book and thumbed through it. And I think, you know, I thought it was a nine. It didn't really grab me. I think I was learning a lot about just clinical psychology and was kind of in that vein of really trying to understand and treat mental health and psychopathology. and it wasn't– it was three years ago that I was reintroduced to it through a colleague here in town who opened up Enneagram Chattanooga. And I knew something called me to it. And this was in 2017. Something was, and I cannot even explain what it was. I honestly don't even remember how it was reintroduced in my life. It probably was you on Instagram if I'm honest.
[00:08:51] Steph Barron Hall: Oh! [laughs]
[00:08:52] Shelley Prevost: But I remember feeling immediately drawn to it and I was doing a lot of work around burnout. And so I just started reading it again and took some tests and I was like, "I'm not a nine." I didn't really know what I was. It took me a year to figure out I'm a Two. I went back and forth as you know, between Three and Two and I wasn't sure. And then I was like, I don't know my subtype. So it's been a journey like this - this kind of leg that I'm in now has really been, a process. I mean, once it grabbed me, it grabbed me and I tell people all the time, the Enneagram– you don't find the Enneagram, the Enneagram finds you when you're ready for it. And I was just at a, a broken enough place, I think, in my life that I was looking for any tool I could find. And that one landed squarely in my lap. And it just, you know, I've not looked back at this point.
[00:09:47] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. I love that story because I think for a lot of us, there was a moment before we truly, you know, got into it. That was like vaguely introduced and it's like, yeah, not for me. And then came back around at just the right moment.
[00:10:03] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. And it is, I don't know what that's about, but I've, I've actually seen that a lot with people too. And it, it mystifies me when people don't take to it. when they just like find out their type and then they can walk away, because of how much richness there is to it. But yeah, I think you have to be at a point in your life where you're looking for that depth and, a lot of us aren't, we're busy, we're moving we're, you know, in motion. And so we don't really need the depth until we need it. And then I think that's when it grabs you.
[00:10:42] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I think too, there can be that aspect of like going down the rabbit hole of like, "oh, I'm a whatever type and that means I like this type of latte and this type of jeans and whatever", but then coming back to it later, looking more at that inner work piece, and being reintroduced that way.
[00:11:02] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. How– so can I ask, like, how about you? Like, where did you, where did it, like, how did it grab you in terms of the inner work piece of this?
[00:11:13] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. So here's the thing. I think I've always had like this real deep desire to keep the depth there when talking about the Enneagram, you know? Like I've never wanted to just separate all of that, but at the end of 2020, I was like, "I'm burned out. Like I'm tired of this. And I'm really like, over it" kind of like just seeing there's so much more to us as humans than this tool can even ever explain, which is still true, obviously. But actually a couple of friends who were in CP Enneagram, they– so Ashlee Sikorski, whose company is Nine Shapes and then Scott Allender, who you also know from CP, I believe. And so they were on my old podcast, Ask an Enneagram Coach and they both just really kind of inspired me that like– like Ashlee, I remember her saying, "You'll fall back in love with the Enneagram if you go through this, you know, the CP Program.” And I was like, "eh, okay. Like, I don't really believe you, but okay." And, what I found is like, It really entered me into this season of like really using it for my own personal transformation, which I kind of disappeared online in 2021 because of that, like I was like, "I'm literally undergoing such transformation and doing all this inner work right now." And I kind of was just like floated away. But yeah, I think so it's only been, maybe a year that I've completely been revolutionizing the way that I use it for my own personal work, beyond what I'd been doing before.
[00:13:02] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. And I do think that's this– that's the evolution of what I hope is happening,
[00:13:08] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Shelley Prevost: that people are seeing, Yes, there's still a lot of intrigue in typing, but
[00:13:15] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm yeah.
[00:13:16] Shelley Prevost: I do see more and more people craving the depth, and not really sure where to turn to find it because not everybody can or wants to join a coaching program or really study this at the depth that we are. But I find more and more people, are just intrigued. Like when I talk about kind of the whole system and, and how it's transformed me, like you're talking about, they're like, "Wow, okay. like, there's more to it than I thought." So I think there is a lot of doors opening around ways to apply it. That's beyond just scratching the surface. And that's exciting. I think for both of us.
[00:13:57] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And it's really interesting. I don't know if you found this, but like at first, I think it was- it was a tool for personal insight, but I also think that, it really quickly, I think became a thing that I could really use to improve my relationships with others and really, really talk with them about that. And so it's been really interesting to move from like, "Okay, yeah, this is a tool that helped me have compassion and understanding and empathy in my relationships and like in my marriage and these different spaces", but it took going back to it for my myself to be like, "I actually don't care about using it with my husband as much anymore. Now I'm really using it for my own personal journey."
[00:14:39] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. And I– yeah, totally resonate with all of that, like, there's a, there's a little bit of a switch that's flipped, for me anyway, that it became- it became less of a tool and more of this really indispensable part. It's almost like this lens that I now run everything through, for my personal development work. And of course that changes how I show up for people. But yeah, I can, I can resonate with that.
[00:15:12] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. Yeah. And I know that you mentioned that you're Two, and before we started recording, we're talking a little bit about subtypes. So I would love to hear what that journey was like for you, like understanding your subtype and, and what that kind of brings to your Enneagram work.
[00:15:27] Shelley Prevost: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So the first time I read Bea's book, The Complete Enneagram, I was listening to it, driving to Atlanta. Don't even know what I was doing, where I was going, but I remember crying so hard when she was- she doesn't narrate it, but the narrator got to the Social Two. And I was like, "Ugh!" There's like, you know, a ton of bricks on me. So was like, I'm totally Social Two. And then starting– so that was probably in like 2017, 2018, somewhere in there. But then, I was going back between Social Two and Three. Not sure. And those are mistyped a lot, which I've come to learn. And then the pandemic of course started in 2020 and, started the program– you know, the same year.
[00:16:22] So a lot of my Self-Preservation characteristics, at whatever point they are in my sequence, were definitely showing up in real big ways. Which of course makes sense. And I read, you know, as I was reading the Self-Preservation Two, and I would get feedback from people. And, you know, I'm like, "Is this– is this me? Does this sound like me?" And there was a lot about it that people didn't see, but I resonated with in being childlike, privileged, this sense of like how this Self-Preservation uses Two in this, charming way. So there's a lot about that that really connected with me. And then I questioned whether so much that I didn't connect with was in my blind spot. And so I've really been looking and watching and observing those kind of, default tendencies that come with Self-Preservation type, like the type, the subtype, and a lot of it I see. So, and I've always said, and I may even said in our class, I feel like the Social and the Self-Pres instinct are very close to me. Like they're both kind of the same, they, in terms of one doesn't really feel neutral. So, as we've been coming a little bit more out of the pandemic, I've been emerging back in this kind of leader role with starting our business and out in the community. We've just rented some space downtown. I mean, it feels so more core and natural, those kind of, those instincts that really do orient me around the group and being seen by the group.
[0018:14] And for me, it's really a lot around the community. And so I find myself having to fight that urge a lot and like go back into myself instead of losing myself in the group. And I haven't felt that way since before the pandemic, but it's certainly when I look at like my life, even not so much as a kid, but definitely in middle school and high school and college like that, the Social instinct is the one that got me in the most trouble. It's the one that I have chronically kind of struggled with the most. It's been– so my husband's a Sexual Four. And so this, I mean, you can imagine the Social instinct and the Sexual instinct where he is a Four and he's very authentic. He's out there. What he feels, he says, and I'm like, "Shut up. Oh my God, you can't say that you can't–" [laughs] So we have had– we've been married 22 years now. So this is an ongoing together almost 25 years. Like this has been– we almost didn't get married because of this struggle. Man, had I had the Enneagram and knew, and had language like, "Oh, that's your instinct to be so broadcasting how you're feeling.” And then that competition, comes out in those, you know, and I think a lot of social anxiety for him too. And he's Social repressed, which is interesting.
[00:19:45] So all of that, like really reflecting, honestly with myself and rereading the description a lot of the Social Two, it just, it fits and it's humiliating to say that because I so don't– I just don't– none of us like these things that we learn about ourselves, but it is true and it's changed– the biggest thing that's changed for me, so the Self-Preservation Two really– their path, their growth path is stepping into their authority. And that is a thing for me. I continue to work on that, but it's almost the exact opposite for the Social Two, which is to be more anonymous, to step back, to do less self-promoting. And so I am constantly trying to find that line to walk between those and especially on like social media and like, I wanna hide behind my brand. And, but yet I know I need to step out and be kind of the legitimate authority of what we're doing. Like, there's something important about that. So it's a constant struggle to figure out how to balance those really strong instincts, on a daily basis, cuz it's kind of, and I remember Uranio said, "Just– it's whatever's showing up in your life. That's giving you what you need to work on." And so every day it's different for me.
[00:21:21] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I, I think it's so interesting, that this thing that we need to work on, right? So- and I'm saying "we", because I'm a Social Three and I feel like Social Three and Social Two are so incredibly similar.
[00:21:32] Shelley Prevost: They are. Yep.
[00:21:33] Steph Barron Hall: Um,
[00:21:34] Shelley Prevost: I agree.
[00:21:35] Steph Barron Hall: and I had the same struggle where I'm like, "I wanna hide", like for the longest time, I was like totally anonymous on my Instagram. It took a long time for me to actually step out and show my face and talk about myself and it still can be really hard for me. And it's so interesting because you would think the opposite of both Social Twos and Social Threes. And so it's just curious to me, I think for me, obviously it's like, it feels really vulnerable to show up imperfectly. And I'm wondering how that shows up for you as a Social Two. Like what is the thing there? Like, is it–
[00:22:15] Shelley Prevost: yeah. It's not vulnerability for me. And I think that's, what's interesting. I'm very, I think I'm pretty vulnerable and I'm pretty okay being imperfect out there. I'm like, "You know what? Don't edit this podcast. Let it, let it be what it is. Like if I cry, I cry. If I cuss, I cuss.”
[00:22:35] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:22:35] Shelley Prevost: But for me it's this incredibly unrealistic standard of– I won't say perfection, cuz it's not that it's more of definitely reputational, needing people to see me a certain way as someone who's wise. And so it's not about being perfect, but it definitely is about, perception and what I really control and cultivate how I need and want people to see me. So that- so not having that control, cuz sometimes for twos, even our vulnerability can be a part of our impression management. We can use that when we need to. And so, it's that I might show up as the face of my brand or saying things or– and it may not land how I intend it to land and people may see me in a way that I don't want and I can't control that.
[00:23:43] Steph Barron Hall: Right.
[00:23:44] Shelley Prevost: So that's where I tend to shrink and kind of pull back when I really feel like I can't control how this is gonna land with people and I'm working through that, you know, I'm like, "okay, it's gonna be what it's gonna be. People are gonna think what they are gonna think." And that's more what it is for me. It's that, "What are they gonna think about me? Or how do they perceive me?" That feels pretty scary.
[00:24:12] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm yeah.
[00:24:14] Shelley Prevost: And I don't know if that's the same for you. I can imagine as a Three that vulnerability of stepping into just showing up in this really raw way,
[00:24:24] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:24:25] Shelley Prevost: can feel scary.
[00:24:27] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of that. And I think it also is like, "How is this gonna land?" But also, like, there are so many different people telling you how to be online
[00:24:39] Shelley Prevost: Oh my goodness.
[00:24:40] Steph Barron Hall: And how to be as a coach or as a consultant, or how to show up as somebody who sells courses like so many different ways that you're supposed to be. And it's just been a process of like, returning to, "Well, what about me? Like, what do I know? What can I lean on that I already have? Like, what resources do I have within?", like I don't need to outsource everything, you know?
[00:25:03] Shelley Prevost: Yes.
[00:25:04] Steph Barron Hall: To understand what the process is, I guess. Is what I'm trying to say is like, I don't need to get the blueprint. That's what I'm trying to say. So like, I don't need to get the blueprint from somebody else.
[00:25:18] Shelley Prevost: Yeah,
[00:25:19] Steph Barron Hall: And it's okay to make mistakes, cuz I think sometimes relying on a blueprint in a lot of ways is like, "Well I'm not gonna mess up. Or if I do it's their fault." Right?
[00:25:27] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. And that is– that's a little Social Two also
[00:25:31] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:25:32] Shelley Prevost: is like, we like to saddle up to people with– of influence and take our cues from them a little bit, but you know, work like a dog to get their approval and to get their– to get to be seen by them. And I had someone recently ask me what keeps me up at night and I was like,
[00:25:56] Steph Barron Hall: What a question.
[00:25:57] Shelley Prevost: Yeah, isn't it. And I was like, you know what it is– it's definitely my children and their wellbeing always. But there is this– What is it? It's like this– and it shows up in dreams. It's an unconscious kind of river that I float around of like this, always thinking about how "X" sees me. And like I did a speech yesterday. And it– I was up in, you know, I'm up all like for the previous three nights, thinking about this talk and how this is gonna go and are they gonna think I'm good? And, and I think we all do that. We all, especially speaking of course, but I think there's something, for me important in this pattern that I'm starting to see. It's really– it's an overconsumed, overly consumed, which creates anxiety for me, is how I'm gonna fit in with the people that I want to impress. And so that's that thread that's kind of always there. And when I don't recognize it, it's the stuff that keeps me up. And I'll ask my husband, you know, or other people, if they struggle with that. And they're like, "No, like, I don't think about like who am I gonna run into on the street?" You know? Or like any random thing where I'm– I do kind of process those things. Like, how do I need to– if I run into this person, you know, do I– what am I gonna talk about? Am I ready to engage in a way that, that they want?
[00:27:47] Steph Barron Hall: Mmm.
[00:27:48] Shelley Prevost: And it's usually people in power, people that I wanna impress people that I– it's all that strategic helping that we Twos do.
[00:27:56] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, yeah. That makes so much sense. And so clarifying too. And well, and maybe that's a bit of a difference between a Two and Three, cuz I've literally never thought about that.
[00:28:05] Shelley Prevost: yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is_ it's a thing we kind of– well, I, anyway, as the Two that I am have this antenna. Even right now, I've got an email I'm waiting to send that I just got this morning to somebody who wants me to come by and check on this startup team. And I'm like, "Oh God, like I have time– when do I–", you know, there's a lot of like posturing and figuring out how to step into this conversation.
[00:28:33] Steph Barron Hall: Sure.
[00:28:36] Shelley Prevost: Knowing that it's important–
[00:28:38] Steph Barron Hall: Right.
[00:28:41] Shelley Prevost: how I show up. And is it, I mean, I think that's part of my growth. Like, is it, and I'm learning that humility is, for me, is reality testing and not working so hard to manage how people see me and how I can show up. I can–
[00:29:01] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:29:01] Shelley Prevost: say what I need to say, be who I am and that's good. And that's okay. It doesn't have to be overworked and over-analyzed and over-prepped for how I'm gonna be with this person. Does that make sense?
[00:29:21] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. So like what's the alternative then? The alternative is thinking through everything you're gonna say, thinking about how you're managing all of that?
[00:29:28] Shelley Prevost: That's usually– and when I'm not doing good inner work, that's what I do. You know, I just kind of, I– Well, I'll say a couple things like it is– there is some that's pride, is the, "You are so important to this person that you need to really think about how you're gonna have this conversation and how you wanna be, who you wanna be, how you wanna be seen, because your words really matter." That's pride. So humility is–
[00:30:09] Steph Barron Hall: "You can take over their whole day with how you show up and how you talk to them."
[00:30:12] Shelley Prevost: That's right. You could take over. Yeah. You could build this- like be your, become your BFF. And that's the indispensability that a lot- that I struggle with, being the person for them, that's, you know, usually around emotional labor is the, is what I'm the person for. But humility for me is, recognizing the tendency to wanna be– and it's the whole strategy of being liked and loved, like seeing that, looking at it, squarely in the eyes, "Yes, I see you, pride. Blowing kisses. I see you- there you are." And dropping it. Like dropping the act and just coming from my heart without kind of pre-recording, whether it's conscious or unconscious, which it's both, what I– who I need to be and how I need to– what I need to do for these, for this person. And it's also tricky. So I'm starting to do more work around flattery, which is our fixation. And it's tricky, man. Cuz sometimes I'm like, "Am I being flattering or am I really coming from, with gratitude in my heart for–" and I can kind of- sometimes I can glimpse the difference, but it's a trickier one for me. It's just something that I'm just now starting to do some work around.
[00:31:47] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, I think that's what's so interesting about Enneagram work in general. I mean, I'll be honest, I come across a lot of people who are like, "Well, I'm a healthy– blah, blah, blah. So that means– blah, blah, blah." And I think the further I get into this work, the more I talk with people like you even talking with people like Bea and Uranio who've been doing this work for so long, they're not waltzing around saying, "I am a healthy– blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You know? It's like there's always something there. There's always something more. The quote-unquote healthier you get, it's just, that just means it's easier for you to see it. like, easier for you to, like you said, drop it.
[00:32:25] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. It's so funny. So like, pride wants, to me, to believe that I can get to level five of awareness, like, you know, of a– of our awareness and it's like, "That's never gonna happen. Like let's let go of this illusion that I can work hard enough to get so healthy or, you know, like that, that I can be so above all this." But I see that there's a part of me that really would love that. and then it becomes the work of letting it go.
[00:32:57] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Which actually kind of makes me think of all these podcasts I listen to about like gurus and stuff like that, and like how they fall and I'm like, "Are they Social Twos?"
[00:33:07] Shelley Prevost: Yeah
[00:33:07] Steph Barron Hall: You know?
[00:33:09] Shelley Prevost: Yeah, yeah. To be seen, to be– the impulse of needing to be seen by the group, as someone who is capable and competent and in control, like we know– we know what's up. And, yeah. And I, again, to your point, like I think the moment you feel like you've gotten there, of course that's pride. And if you don't recognize it, then it's intoxicating
[00:33:40] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:33:40] Shelley Prevost: to be loved and valued by the group, whatever your valued group is.
[00:33:46] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I think too, just like the Social, all of the Social subtypes have that God complex, like we know, and so yeah, not just Twos, but yeah, just thinking through that, that's so fascinating. You've alluded a little bit to your work, but I would love to hear more about like the type of work that you do, you know, a little bit about your background and kind of how- I mean, I'm assuming that you're just gonna naturally weave this in because I've already been hearing it so much already, but just how your Enneagram type, shows up in that work too.
[00:34:22] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. So, it's probably helpful to go back a little bit. So I have studied psychology, been a psychologist for a while. And then in 2010 went into a startup community. So I was kind of the resident shrink if you will, at an incubator. And we just launched startups. High growth tech startups. And I was, you know, everything that you think of a psychologist would do for those, for startups, that's kind of what I helped with. But what's important to know is, a couple things. And this is where my social instinct I think is pretty pronounced. So I was one of six partners with this firm. They were all men. And so there were definitely, an unspoken club that, I mean, anybody in tech knows it's a lot of guys. And so there was a group that I was not a part of–
[00:35:24] Steph Barron Hall: Right.
[00:35:25] Shelley Prevost: Intrinsically could never be a part of that. And I think it really messed with my head, like it created this drive, desire. I kind of became the darling a little bit. Kind of mother hen, but kind of darling, speaking of intoxicating, you know, having all these men need me for emotional support, you can imagine, right? Like what that does. And then in 2014, I had an opportunity to start my own tech company. And so paired up with a couple guys. We started a hardware technology company. It failed spectacularly, in 2017, I was incredibly burned out. And so all that- and I ended up leaving the firm, leaving my startup, took me about a year and a half to heal from burnout. Like it was bad. And every way you can think about physical, mental health, it was bad. And then came out of that after a year of hiding, reading, studying the Enneagram, really figuring out what the hell just happened. how did I get there? Came out of that and decided to start- like go back into health and wellbeing, not as a therapist, I knew I didn't wanna be a therapist anymore, but I knew I loved coaching. And I knew I loved working with people in high stress environments, business communities. And so Big Self School came from all of that. Like how do we help people lead? Like have these really big dreams, but not burn out. Like there has to be a way to merge those two ideas in some kind of sustainable way. And so that's really a lot, I mean, researching coaching, talking, consulting a lot around mental health, burnout, stress, also emotional intelligence, all those things that we know we need to thrive. And then, and now my husband's getting certified. He's just started the CP program. So we're both kind of, you know, we're just in Enneagram. So you know, neck deep in it. And so finding ways to bring that more and more into the business vernacular, like at a deeper level, cause there's a lot of typing happening and you know this from, you know, there's a lot of people that are interested in my type and his type and how do we work together? And that's great, but I, you know, working– beginning to work more and more with how do you really transform cultures through this tool? And so that's a lot of what we're we're doing right now and we're figuring out frankly, like studying it at a real deep level.
[00:38:24] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. And such important work because I think even, you know, like you're mentioning at least in my work that I've done, so for the past like four years, most of my income has come from working with organizations like going in and working with teams. And so often I come in and they're like, "All right, let's do a one hour thing", you know? Or, and I've been really fortunate to have certain clients who are like, "Okay, we're gonna do an hour each quarter", or "We're gonna do, like, everyone gets a typing session. And then we're all gonna do this work together." But unless people are truly invested, it's not actually gonna change anything. And, and so it just becomes like another, like HR seminar they have to go to. And so I love that you're really invested in doing this actual transformational work because that's what's gonna change those cultures of those companies. That's what's gonna help people understand, like, you know, "Oh, who I am and who I bring to work matters." you know? But when people aren't invested in learning, they don't retain anything.
[00:39:33] Shelley Prevost: Right. Yeah. And I think that's changing. I don't know if you've seen this, but with the pandemic and with people leaving work and droves, like I've had several CEOs and executives reach out and they're like, "We don't know if you can help, but our turnover is crazy right now." What– and so all of this I think is coming to a head a little bit and a lot of people they're asking for help. They don't really know what they're asking for specifically. And yeah, we'll try the Enneagram if you think it'll work. So there's a, there's more of an appetite, I think for, for this in the business community. From my talk yesterday, I've had a couple people reach out just like, you know, "what is it? And can you help solve this problem?" And, I think that's an entryway into coming into this work is looking at what it can do, but yeah, I'm optimistic that people will wanna go a little bit deeper, because it can transform cultures if people are willing to do the work. Yeah.
[00:40:40] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, yeah, sure. Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I was just talking with someone- oh, I was talking with my coach yesterday. My own coach. And I was just saying, you know, I'm tired of doing hit and run Enneagram where I come in for an hour and people are just scraping the surface. Like I think as somebody who loves this tool so much, it leaves you feeling really depleted because the conversations that we dig into and we love are like, "what does this actually mean? Like, so what, who cares about the information. How do you apply it?" And those are the things that I've always really, you know, wanted to dig into more. And when you're not- you don't always get that opportunity. It can, it can, I think that can even lead to burnout.
[00:41:29] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I think, I find– I'm finding this can be really overwhelming to people who either don't know what they are asking for, or they aren't ready for it. And I remember, because sometimes I think it can be introduced in a way that could create more problems. And so really assessing like where– what is the readiness? And I think there's a place for the one hours and the half days, I do. I think that the right people– and what I tend to see happening a lot is, or some more now where people, it could be a manager or an employee, somebody sees something and they're like, we could use that. And so then they're bringing it in and, the executives don't always know, they don't always see. And so it's really interesting to see that grassroots effort happening in a lot of organizations. And so then going in and assessing, is the executive team ready? Cuz I usually start with the executive team when I do introductions, I do a half day or typing interviews or something like I really want to understand their level of openness to it, because I agree with you. I think sometimes it could lead to more burnout or more problems. But then also starting to see it the opposite way, this kind of grassroots, where people are really craving more high functioning cultures and seeing that this could be a way to get there. So, it's funny though, cuz a couple years ago, I would not have ever thought that this work in businesses with this tool would've been interesting to me. Like–
[00:43:24] Steph Barron Hall: Why is that?
[00:43:26] Shelley Prevost: Because of capitalism.
[00:43:29] Steph Barron Hall: Okay. Yeah. Uhhuh.
[00:43:30] Shelley Prevost: Quite frankly that, before the pandemic, I think this would've been a luxury. That this work it's– “Where's the ROI?” It's a lot of time to invest in this. And I felt that from the business community, certainly the startup community. And so I was like, "yeah, I'm not interested. I'm not– I don't wanna spend my time convincing people that this is important." And just in a matter of a couple years, I'm seeing that change and I'm seeing a desperation that I've not seen before. And so I think timing is right for people who wanna do this work inside businesses, at all levels. Whether it's an hour lunch and learn or a full on, you know, monthly six month engagement, I think every everywhere in between, there's a lot of need for, for this work.
[00:44:25] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. And I think, you know, we're seeing leaders and executives, and even just like culturally, the way that things are shifting what we used to consider, quote-unquote soft skills are considered more essential now in a way I think a few years ago, like, I mean, obviously emotional intelligence that as a concept has been around for 30 years. But even, you know, a year and a half ago I was doing my master's thesis on, like how to build emotional intelligence, you those types of things. And, some companies have prioritized it. A lot haven't, right? And now it just sounds like there's more and more of a need and, and a real like recognition of the need.
[00:45:20] Shelley Prevost: Mm-hmm yes. Yeah. And a lot of– what is happening for me anyways, people reach out and they're like, "Hey, I hear you do this work. We have this problem. Can you come help?" And then, and I'm very unapologetic about using the Enneagram. It's like, I use it. This is the tool. And they're like, "Cool, whatever you need. Yeah, do what you do. Just come do it." and so I don't, I don't see as, as much resistance as I thought I would see, or maybe even did see a couple years ago. So I love, I love what I'm doing right now. And I think it's a lot like-I remember like February I did my retreat A and it was like something broke open. So I won't say anything cuz I don't wanna spoil it for you, but it was really, you know, meeting something so intrinsic to who you are or you– I thought was so intrinsic, which was pride and seeing it and having a name to it and understanding that like the definition and how it shows up for me and then disidentifying from it being like, "Oh, that's not me, but it's ruled my life." And so to get to that clarity totally created this shift for me professionally, because for a long time I thought, "Coaching was beneath me. Consulting's beneath me. I need to do more than that. I need to be global. I need to be big. I need–" It's like this pride drive, go be big, big, big- big self . It's like, you know, even, and it– so to be in this place where I get to do really humble work and like deep work with people, you know, even just a few people and see their lives change. I'm gonna cry– [takes deep breath]
[00:47:17] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. It's really sacred, I think. Mm-hmm
[00:47:23] Shelley Prevost: That's a good word.
[00:47:26] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:47:27] Shelley Prevost: And it's, you know, it's the work I've been doing for a long time. But when you start seeing these patterns and you can break 'em open a little bit, the work changes. So it's no longer, my pride doesn't get- doesn't like- the bells don't go off as much because it is sacred and I'm able to really see it differently. And so the work's the same, you know? I've been doing this work for, you know, decades really. But, yeah. So, I would tell anybody, and I do tell people I work with who are burned out and, as we get into this tool and they start seeing this stuff, your work will change. You know, these unconscious patterns will break open. And so it's not always about leaving my job or changing my career, although sometimes it is. But most of the time, it's this river that we are unconsciously kind of flowing in that once that changes, then everything else shifts to. And it, I mean, this is a process this takes years of really getting- and I will probably- I will be doing this the rest of my life, but it's really cool to be sitting in a spot where I feel grateful. It's really, really grateful for this work instead of like, "What more– What more should I be doing? Could I be doing? Who else do I need to be networking with?" Or like, you know, it's pretty gratifying to be in a place of acceptance for who I am and really what I probably am, my Twoness, part of how that shows up is in this work and what I'm really put here to do.
[00:49:29] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, yeah. And I think what's so beautiful about that too is, the natural inclination, especially at the Social Two, is to like you're saying go out and be bigger, but it's you know, where you're actually finding your purpose and meaning in life is like in reeling it all back in and like doing the little small things, instead of the big things.
[00:49:54] Shelley Prevost: Yeah. Yeah. And aligning more with you know, my holy idea is freedom.
[00:50:01] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:50:02] Shelley Prevost: So this idea that I'm free, I don't have to align with anyone or anything, or any idea or anything bigger than who I am to be okay. And be loved, you know? And I'm very, very far from that holy idea, but it is, it's an idea that I think is really beautiful and, you know, I keep hoping and waiting to cultivate that more and more in my life.
[00:50:35] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that's so beautiful. I'm so glad that you shared that. And I think those listening too will be really grateful to hear that too. I think just how genuine and like vulnerable you've been in the way that you talk about what it's like to be, not only a Two, but like you as a Two. Like I love hearing that so much. Um, and I love how passionate you are about that work
[00:51:04] Shelley Prevost: Oh, gosh, I am. Maybe more than I should be sometimes, but I am. Like, yeah, I become quite the evangelist with the Enneagram as you are too. I'll tell you once it bites you, it bites you and you can't, you can't not talk about it.
[00:51:26] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah.
[00:51:27] Shelley Prevost: And it's so amazing for me. Like, that's the thing, this isn't BS. This is like– it's changed my marriage, my parenting, like my work, like everything. And so, and things that have evaded me for– I've been in and out of therapy mostly in for 25 years and things that I never could put my finger on, became quite clear quickly with the Enneagram. So, that's why I'm so passionate about it because you know, nothing really gets you to that honest place, for me, like the Enneagram.
[00:52:12] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear more about what you're working on now, because I really want people to be able to connect with you. I'm not sure you know who your like ideal client is, but if they're listening, you know, maybe they would wanna connect. And I know about your podcast, so I'd love to hear all those details from you.
[00:52:34] Shelley Prevost: Yeah, thank you. We do have a podcast, The Big Self School Podcast, and it's a lot around leadership and mental health. We're toying with the idea of making it much more specific to the Enneagram and business. And how- what those applications could look like. Just because there's just not a lot out there specific to how organizations can use the Enneagram and because that's so much of our work right now.
[00:53:04] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:53:04] Shelley Prevost: We do a lot of consulting and training with organizations. Mostly I would say midsize. So startups and midsize tend to be who we love working with the most. And I'm up for the challenge of figuring out how to scale this through a larger organization. I've not done that and I think there's something there to explore with people. When you have hundreds of people in an organization, what that could look like for everybody to get in the same– singing from the same hymnal. I think it'd be really cool to figure out what that would look like. I do one-on-one coaching–
[00:53:48] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:48] Shelley Prevost: and work with people really all over who, and again, I'm unapologetic. It's the Enneagram. We dive into what I think are essential leadership skills through the lens. If you're Enneagram type and subtype and really look at where your hurdles are, and then I help you figure out what they are, put a plan together. And yeah, love that very sacred work as you, as you just said.
[00:54:18] And then we've got some events coming up. We're doing some events here in Chattanooga, in our studio, that we've just got. And we're doing a leadership accelerator. Which is, you know, think about like a three day bootcamp. So really diving deep quickly into the Enneagram. We're gonna do a couple's retreat in the fall just because that's becoming more asked for.
[00:54:46] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:54:47] Shelley Prevost: Couples to be able to have that experience together. Yeah. And then we're gonna be putting some of this online too. So I think the best thing, if people wanna reach out and connect with us through our website, Bigselfschool.com and there's lots there to look at.
[00:55:03] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, amazing. I love all of that so much. And I think it's really clear to me how much experience you do have, especially because it sounds like it's all connected and you have these different spots where you're serving these different people, but kind of all in that same vein. Which yeah, it's just, it really is an exciting time right now, I think. Because like you said at the top, it is changing a bit where people are looking for more depth, a lot of people who are into the Enneagram, know their type now. And so they're like, "okay, well what's next?" And so I love kind of being in that moment of helping people answer that question for themselves.
[00:55:48] Shelley Prevost: Yeah, yeah, me too. Me too. And being able to point them, in the right direction of like resources and what- and that's probably one of the biggest questions I get asked is "What do I- Okay, I know my type. What do I do with it now?"
[00:56:02] Steph Barron Hall: "What's next?"
[00:56:02] Shelley Prevost: "What do I do now? I know my number now what?" And so being able to help in that process, whether it's with me or us or not, is really exciting.
[00:56:12] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, for sure. I love it. Okay, so I have two wrap-up questions for you.
[00:56:18] Shelley Prevost: Okay.
[00:56:18] Steph Barron Hall: The first one is– I mean, you can't really see it right now, but I have all these books. I also have stacks of books everywhere around me. I love to read. And so I always like to talk about books. So if you could think of one, what is a book that has helped you or refreshed you or shaped you in the last year?
[00:56:43] Shelley Prevost: This is a book I read at least every year, but have read it, oh my gosh, I think it's 20 years old now. It's a little teeny tiny book called Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer. And it, oh my gosh. He's so good. It's all about vocational calling and I, you know, I just rip quotes from that liberally all the time, because it's just, it's so much about true self, how it shows up in our work, what wholeness really means is being imperfect and embracing imperfections. And he's been doing this work for, I mean, probably 70 years now. I mean, he's in his eighties now. And we just had him on our podcast, which was a huge, huge, huge thing for us as we love him so much.
[00:57:39] Steph Barron Hall: I'm sorry. I'm like a little starstruck
[00:57:41] Shelley Prevost: Shocking, I cried, you know, I was like, "Oh, I love you so much." But that book, it just continues to speak to me in so many ways that– you know, I've read it, I don't even know probably 50 times now. And it still grabs me. And so I, I just love that book so much. So that's definitely the one that's not just this year, but for many years has impacted me.
[00:58:09] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:58:10] Shelley Prevost: So check it out.
[00:58:12] Steph Barron Hall: Yes. I mean, I love his idea around like the violence of the divided life. And when I first read that, I was like, "Oh-", cuz I think I actually had to read him in grad school. So I think that's where I kind of came across that and I was like, "Oh wow. That is such a different way to say that. But it was really clarifying for me.
[00:58:35] Shelley Prevost: And how that violence has turned inward and sometimes outward and we become dangerous when we're living this inauthentic divided life. I love his definition of burnout too, which is, for him, he says, "burnout is not about giving too much of myself. It's giving what I don't possess."
[00:58:53] Steph Barron Hall: Ohh
[00:58:54] Shelley Prevost: And so he talks about– he's got great stories around this divided life, like being tasked to given ways– and he's a three–
[00:59:05] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:59:06] Shelley Prevost: being tasked to given ways that were not intrinsic to who he naturally– who he was and how he had to figure it out and overcome that. And it's just brilliant.
[00:59:20] Steph Barron Hall: Oh my gosh. Okay, so we're all just gonna hop over to your podcast after this and listen to that episode.
[00:59:24] Shelley Prevost: It's so good.
[00:59:26] Steph Barron Hall: So, I’ll link-
[00:59:26] Shelley Prevost: I must say,
[00:59:27] Steph Barron Hall: I'll link it in the show notes.
[00:59:28] Shelley Prevost: My sweet husband was like, "Well, I didn't get a word in." I was like, "Well, he's kind of my guy." like, I loved him.
[00:59:37] Steph Barron Hall: Yes.
[00:59:38] Shelley Prevost: Yeah, it's good.
[00:59:39] Steph Barron Hall: That's awesome. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I'll link all of those things in the show notes. Okay. Last question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?
[00:59:53] Shelley Prevost: So I have a couple things that that makes me think of. One, on the podcast with Parker. And I've heard him talk [01:00:00] about this before. He talks about how, I can't remember how he phrased it, but it was basically like how little actions are so much more valuable than the big ones. And he really emphasized taking small kind of microsteps and releasing ourself from these irrational beliefs of how we need to be, what we need to achieve, how we have to show up. And I've heard him talk about that before, and it's actually like the I've wanted to write a book, Big Self, Tiny Moments and how these tiny moments too, like these almost imperceptible, sometimes unconscious moments is what creates- helps us evolve into this higher self and get– and the Enneagram, I think, is a great framework for that. Like these tiny things and little patterns that I've become aware of really are helping me raise my consciousness. You know, that's just, there's no other way to say it. So I think that's really stuck with me. And then this- it's funny, my grandmother- oh and my- my Mamaw and Papaw for years would say, "you're as good as anyone, but you're better than no one."
[01:01:24] Steph Barron Hall: Mm mm-hmm
[01:01:25] Shelley Prevost: And so, I've always been like, "Well, that's kind of weird. Why?" like, you know? But learning about humility and pride and how humility is this kind of- it's the saying that my Mamaw and Papaw, you know, I am as good as anyone, but I'm better than no one. And so to be that- that's kind of that mantra for me to be that kind of level, just level, is a really good lesson for me and a mantra for me to kind of carry through my life with. That all started when I was a little girl. Right? That they had no idea-
[01:02:09] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, yeah.
[01:02:09] Shelley Prevost: that it would be that important to me.
[01:02:11] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Wow. That's such a fantastic picture of like, kind of how that's carried you in and all these realizations, you know, with the Enneagram and stuff and like how it really has rung true. So fascinating just how our type shows up in the smallest ways.
[01:02:31] Shelley Prevost: It does. Yeah. When we're- when we see it, we have clear eyes to see it. Um, but then we can do something about it.
[01:02:39] Steph Barron Hall: Yep. That's where the fun begins.
[01:02:42] Shelley Prevost: That is- that's exactly right. That's where the fun begins.
[01:02:46] Steph Barron Hall: Yes. Well, I have already mentally pre-ordered your book. So just let me know whenever I can do that for real.
[01:02:53] Shelley Prevost: Done.
[01:02:55] Steph Barron Hall: Yes. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I think this will be really valuable to everyone who's listening. Really appreciate your time. Yeah, I'm just excited to hear-
[01:03:05] Shelley Prevost: Yeah, I appreciate you. And all that you're doing in the world and you know that. You know, I adore you and I'm so glad our paths crossed back in, I don't know, April-ish and to be like, to have our orbits kind of overlap a little bit. So this is a treat for me. So thank you.
[01:03:25] Steph Barron Hall: This is really fun. Thanks so much.
[01:03:27] Shelley Prevost: Yes. Thank you.
[01:03:29] Steph Barron Hall: Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one. If you want to stay connected, sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram @ninetypesco to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show. I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.
[01:04:11] The Enneagram In Real Life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Doctor Dreamchip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify.
