Using the Enneagram with Teams with Truity Labs' Samantha Mackay
Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, the weekly podcast where we go beyond Enneagram theory and dive into practical understanding, new clarity, and fresh insight. We’re talking about how each type is in REAL LIFE so you can remember – you’re more than just a number.
This week’s episode of Enneagram IRL is a little special because I'm the one being interviewed! Truity Labs (@truitylabs) is an online personality assessment platform, and they have a variety of assessments, including the Enneagram. A few months ago, I was interviewed by Samantha Mackay, who creates training programs and content for Truity Labs! Fun Fact: Samantha and I met in the Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy.
In this interview, Samantha and I discussed some of the upsides and downsides of using the Enneagram with teams, my approach to leadership and organizational communication as a practitioner, and more. So thank you so much to Samantha and Truity for interviewing me!
Watch the entirety of this episode on Truity Labs' YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVI9WML1Aw
Follow Truity Labs on Instagram @truitylabs
Or Connect with them online at https://www.truity.com/
Here are the key takeaways:
Professional journey of using the Enneagram with teams
Practical ways to use the Enneagram with teams & common challenges
Why organization development matters within teams
Discussing the importance of self-leadership
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Enneagram Resources for you!
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Listen to the Episode
Read the Full, Unabridged Transcript
Steph Barron Hall: Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Barron Hall, creator of Nine Types Co. on Instagram, author of The Enneagram in Love, accredited Enneagram professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you. Be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram in your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now on to the show.
Welcome back to another episode. And today's episode is a little different because I'm being interviewed. So before we get started, I wanna let you know that you can watch the entirety of this episode on Truity Labs’, YouTube channel. Truity that's T R U I T Y Labs is an online personality assessment platform. They have a variety of assessments, including the Enneagram.
And if you've gotten my self typing guide, you know, that I include the free version of this assessment in the guide and the emails that go along with it. I've worked with Truity on a few different projects and I have appreciated their approach to fusing personality assessments. With technology, they are really willing to rethink their approach and make adjustments to continually improve their tools, which I love. I just think that adaptability is so positive.
And I actually did an Instagram live a few months ago with the CEO of Truity, whose name is Molly.
So you can watch this interview as a video on YouTube linked in the show notes. Or you can listen to it right here. So for this episode, I was interviewed a few months ago by Samantha Mackay who creates training programs and content for Truity labs and Samantha and I Met in the Chestnut Paes, Enneagram academy. So,
I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with Beatrice Chestnut. She is in Enneagram practitioner teacher and, and very well esteemed as well as her business partner Uranio Paes. And so that's where Samantha and I met.
And in this interview, we talked about some of the upsides and downsides actually of using the Enneagram with teams. My approach to leadership and communication as a practitioner and more, there are just a lot of different things that we discuss in this episode. Um, but I think it's a really helpful Conversation and I think also,, I snuck in a few questions for Samantha throughout the episode as well. Because I really like the Enneagram as a tool to use with teams. And I think that there are some real dangers. And so I think it's really important to do it really well to be ethical about it. So that's what we discuss In this podcast slash YouTube, episode
so, thank you so much to Samantha and Truity for interviewing me. I really hope you all enjoy this episode. And you can find all the links to Truity. Everything their Enneagram assessment, their Blog, their YouTube, et cetera. You can find all of that in the show notes. And I really hope you enjoy.
Samantha: I'm really excited to talk about how we use the engram with groups and in that group dynamic, Often we use it in terms of either ourselves or in terms of relationships.
Steph: Yeah. I think it's really one of the most powerful things that we can do with the Enneagram. I have found not only for me and my, you know, one-on-one relationships, but simply knowing, you know, even if you don't know, somebody's type, knowing that they have a different motivation, that kind of unlocks a whole different perspective. And I think it's really, really helpful when it comes to communication in particular.
Samantha: So what led you to using the Enneagram in the workplace and with teams?
Steph: Yeah, I mean, it's always kind of been a thought for me. Um, when I was in undergrad, I actually was super fascinated with this concept of using personality systems with teams in particular. and then I, my, um, Master's degree is in organizational communication and leadership. And so that's kind of the framework that I use. I use a lot of communication theory. I use a lot of, um, psychological theories even in thinking about leadership and I bring those into the way that I approach the Enneagram with the teams that I work with. So what I really love about it is having the ability to go into a team and You know, this is something that I think a lot of coaches experience, but having the little aha moments. So when you say, oh, you know, this type often does this, or they often say this, or they often experience communication this way. And people are like, oh my gosh, we just had a conversation about that yesterday. I love having those moments and helping teams to understand each other and, and themselves a lot better.
Samantha: So I'm curious. So how do you use the Enneagram with teams, like in a, in a practical way, and then what are some of the common challenges that, that come out of that?
Steph: Yeah, so first and foremost, um, I normally like to help them figure out their type. So that might mean that I do typing interviews with everyone on the team first, especially with smaller teams, we normally, you know, set it up that way. Um, or I, you know, send an assessment and have them Walk through that. And then also have them walk through my self typing guide to kind of validate the, as the assessment a bit. Um, and then I go into a presentation. So I present the Enneagram to them and help them to understand, you know, the core motivation of each type, what the type is avoiding. Um, Some of the common work style things, and in ways that they can move forward in really simple ways, you know, you and I have a lot of experience in, you know, studying the Enneagram and, and we have all this theoretical knowledge, which is fantastic, but I really focus on simplifying things and, and thinking what's the bare minimum that they need to know to kind of dip their toe into it and to start understanding it and start applying it in their daily lives. So from there, I typically take them into thinking about communication, you know, what are the different ways that we all communicate and how can we, um, approach that in our lives. So I normally will facilitate conversations, um, ask them for their feedback as I'm going through the types and, and invite some of those conversations depending on the size of the group, Of course. Um, and then I also send them these, um, communication packets. It's basically a booklet that I wrote, um, to help them Understand, you know, okay, I'm going into a meeting with this person. Um, how is this person, you know, what's their communication style? What do I need to look out for? What do I need to, say, you know, when I'm approaching them and then also for each individual, I have like a little snippet saying, this is how you can develop your communication style. and so of course I'm always inviting people to validate things and say, you know, this might not be true of you. Especially with communication. We have all these different layers, um, culture and background and all these different, you know, social identifiers that, um, combine to make our communication style. And also with that knowledge, I have seen just over time how these certain threads kind of Pull together through, you know, different contexts, different, um, workplaces, different people, groups, and everything. And, and some of those communication threads still exist. So I really am, am trying to help them to identify the way that they approach communication and to meet others where they're at.
Samantha: I can see how the value in keeping things a bit simple, because most people don't want as much theory and knowledge as we have about it. It's about just how can I use this to improve my day to day work and effectiveness.
Steph: Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Samantha: Can you, I really wanna get some examples. Like I really wanna get a sense, Like what's a team you've worked with and how are some ways that learning their Enneagram type really helped.
Steph:Yeah, I think, you know, like I said, there's a lot of that like, aha moment. So especially with teams that are really close. So looking at, you know, they have that sense of they're in the norming phase or the performing phase already. Um, yeah, so, uh, the performing phase already, so they're, they're really in that phase of where they're doing really well together. Those teams in particular have. Really a sense of connection already. And so they can start to call things out and identify them. And so it helps because, you know, especially in a stressful work environment, I'm thinking of one example in particular, um, where I had two types paired together and eight and a six and, you know, the six was always Excavating issues and excavating different problems and different challenges. And we had the eight just wanting to say, like, just cut it, move forward. And so really helping them to see like, oh, like the eight, maybe could bend a little bit and say like, okay, I'm, I'm hearing that. And then the six could, um, you know, say, okay, I'm trusting that we're ready here. Um, so each kind of bending a little bit in that sense, and actually I've seen Dynamic play out in a lot of different teams. And then I also worked with a team one time where most of the people on the team were eight. Um, it was a management team. Oh. And, um, so it was fascinating because. They all, you know, they got everything done. Um, but maybe it would've been better if they had more connection, you know, they had more connection with the people who were reporting to them, um, or with different people in the organization like that could have made things easier. Um, of course they had the strength of being able to go into a meeting that felt like a tennis match, where everyone was just lobbying concepts back and forth then, and just processing. And they could cut through that and really get to, You know, the meat of the thing, um, at the end of the meeting. And so that's like kind of their superpower, but, um, it was really helpful to be able to bring some more of those conversations to light.
Samantha: So you mentioned organizational development and that I think is a really key part of how, you know, why teams matter and, and what we need to, you know, shape at work. So tell me a little bit more about that and how the Enneagram plays a part in that?
Steph: Sure. So organizational development is really, or organization development as it's called within the field, um, is really basically an umbrella term for a lot of the processes that we can use, um, to help organizations, Develop into what they want to be or into what they need to be. So it can take a lot of different forms. And I think it's a very, um, vague term. Um, but what I really appreciate about it is that even in all of, you know, my grad school, I went to grad school for this. And even in these classes, what I found with organization development is so often it was actually about personal development. So, so often in those classes, you know, the papers that I was writing, um, all these different things is, is really about, you know, self leader. What does that look like? Um, with the concept that you can't lead others? Well, unless you can lead yourself well. So that's why I love this overlay with the Enneagram, because I find that the Enneagram is so powerful in cultivating self-awareness. Um, and actually I've written a bunch about, um, you know, this, this process of how, when we are Communicating with others, we always have intrapersonal communication happening. So within yourself. So we have intrapersonal communication happening, um, concurrently with intrapersonal communication. So if we can understand our own intrapersonal, you know, Hemisphere basically, or atmosphere, then we can, you know, then go into those meetings where we can improve our interpersonal communication because we've already kind of worked on our own self knowledge piece. Um, so it's really, really helpful, especially when we are thinking about, you know, approaching really challenging conversations, approaching workplace conflict, approaching, um, you know, stressful situations, especially. understanding What your triggers are, you know, what's really going to make you upset. What's really going to make you feel stressed. What's really going to make you, you know, struggle in all these different ways. Those things are so crucial because that's going to help you in, you know, every conversation, every interaction you have within the workplace. And. The benefit of the Enneagram as compared to some of the other systems, is that it's not, you know, situational, it's not behavior based, meaning that if I'm working with a team, they're already thinking about how can I apply this in my marriage? How can I apply this with my roommate? How can I apply this in my friendships? So they're already bringing it back to their community. Um, and so I really like that sense of the whole person approach. And so the ethos that I was trained in with, um, organization development, That whole person, like the really holistic, uh, perspective on humans who are going to work every day and, and kind of being there. So, um, that's, that's really the approach that I take. And I really love working with very like heart forward or, um, you know, leaders that really Put a high importance on personal development because I find that they are the ones who understand that professional development comes from personal development most of the time. and so I really love working with those leaders
Samantha: I think you've reminded me, that organizations like at work is a place that can both bring out the best and the worst in us. Yes. And , and. Self leadership almost feels like a reasonably new concept in the scheme of organizational development. You know, it's not, you know, we spent many decades focusing on just growing the senior leaders rather than actually thinking about, you know, leadership, being a skill we have to develop from the day we walk into an, the day we start work is when we start building our self leadership skills.
Steph: Yeah.
Samantha:And it, yeah, the Enneagram is a really great tool that we can apply. Like we can can, no matter where we are in life, it's a self leadership. I think that's a really different.
Steph:Yeah. And I think a big part of self leadership is self-accountability, um, which I used to be really allergic to this concept of self-accountability and like discipline. I was like, no, self-compassion, you know? Um, and I think that's because my personal bent is to be, to really like, um, drive forward really intensely. And so I was really working on pulling back, but I really like this concept of self-accountability because, um, if you can be accountable to yourself and say, Hey, you know, I'm worth it or, or, Hey, like I committed to this or whatever it needs to be. Um, then you can, you know, lead yourself well and show up. And I think this is so crucial in our current environment because we see all these conversations happening, like different organizations saying, okay, everyone is remote forever or we're hybrid Or if you don't come back in the office, you're fired. Um, we have all these different conversations happening and I think what the. The organizations that you know, are saying, if you don't come back, you're fired. Um, I think a lot of the time, what they are neglecting is that concept of self leadership and how, if we invest in employees on that level, then we can say, you know what, actually, they are gonna be accountable because they're gonna show up for their work every day. They show up for themselves every day, they're leading themselves really well. So I can trust that when they're at home, they are doing Good work. And maybe even for a lot of people doing their best work. Um, of course there are other challenges, like with communication, I've worked with a bunch of teams who've who used to be in the office and have now not seen each other in years. Um, so that happens as well. But, um, I just think that's so crucial to, to start to build that sense of self leadership, um, in your employees. The second they walk in the door, And not in a coercive way where you're like, this is what it looks like to lead yourself, but in a way that invites them to develop that for themselves.
Samantha: There's been such a, like almost a push approach to things in organizations for quite a long time. It's almost hard to think about inviting people. Um, because I mean, and this is slightly different model, but sometimes it feels like our, our leaders and managers feel the need to take parental roles and see everyone else as children, which plays out certain patterns that doesn't make space for inviting or almost heart based leadership As you've mentioned.
Steph:Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, especially in the OD framework, but I think this is, this is pretty general as well. Um, that's the difference between a leader and a manager, a manager is More, you know, micromanaging or managing the people or, or making sure that they're all doing these things. Um, a leader is somebody who doesn't necessarily have to have that role, but they're able to embody those characteristics that they want in themselves And they wanna develop in other people and to, to really invite people and bring them along. So I think that's why it's so powerful and so important.
Samantha: So clearly I could talk to you about organizational development all day. So let's uh, before I get stuck on that train, tell me if someone wants to use the anti grammar. What should they be mindful of? You've mentioned a few already, but what else do we need to consider? Mm-hmm I think it's really important to think about, you know, who is going to be presenting it, um, and who is going to be, you know, sharing the perspective, um, making sure that that person is well qualified, making sure that they have, you know, some experience doing it. Um, I know that in a lot of organizations, people get started by just saying, Hey, I'd love to teach on this. So if you're the person who's gonna be doing that, um, make sure that you're setting some ground rules, make sure that you're setting some, um, You know, expectations and make sure that you are not going around and, and overdoing it with the Enneagram and, um, making people really turned off to it. and I also think one thing that's been really helpful for me is just knowing that, I mean, I, I don't know if I've ever been asked a new question at this point, you know, in 2022, I don't think I've been asked a question that I've never heard before about the Enneagram. Um, but. , you know, being prepared to answer those questions and, and for people who have a lot of skepticism and making space for that, like there have been times when people have said, you know, is this all made up? Do, do you ever just feel like it's. You know, it doesn't matter and it's all made up and yes. You know, sometimes yeah. Sometimes I'm like, what is this thing? You know, why am I even doing this? Right. Yeah. So I think that being able to be honest about that and kind of holding it that way and not, you know, beating people over the head with it, but allowing them, you know, to have space and inviting them and saying, okay, maybe this isn't the tool that you end up using. But what can you take from this and learn about yourself and get curious about yourself. And, and that's the entire framework that I really use is saying. This is something that's kind of a symbol that's meant to symbolize, you know, something that you can get curious about within yourself. Um, so how can you get curious about that? How can you do some inner work, some processing, some exploration to see what else is underneath the surface? Um, especially for those of us who have a harder time slowing down and actually doing that type of work.
Samantha: Yeah. That, that can be tricky. That can definitely be tricky. Um, well, thank you so much for sharing all of your insights about working with the, Enneagram and teams.
Steph Barron Hall: Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one. If you want to stay connected, sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram @ninetypesco to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show. I'd love to hear from you.
I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.
The Enneagram In Real Life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Doctor Dreamchip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify.
