Expanding Awareness as an Enneagram 4 with Grizel Caminas
Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, the weekly podcast where we go beyond Enneagram theory and dive into practical understanding, new clarity, and fresh insight. We’re talking about how each type is in REAL LIFE so you can remember – you’re more than just a number.
This week’s episode of Enneagram IRL we meet with Grizel Caminas, an outdoor enthusiast and therapist who uses her platform to inspire folks to connect with nature to support their mental health. After backpacking over 5000 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail, Appalachian Trail, and part of the Continental Divide Trail, Grizel has been personally impacted by the healing that comes with Mother Nature and believes everyone deserves to experience that form of healing. Grizel has been featured on a variety of platforms in both the mental health and outdoor space, including Outside Magazine, REI Co-op Journal, Blue Ridge Magazine, She Explores, Backcountry, American Foundation of Suicide Prevention, Talkspace, and more.
In this episode, we break down aspects of an Enneagram type Four as it applies to Grizel’s experience of being a therapist, influencer, and lover of the outdoors.
Follow Grizel on Instagram & Tik Tok: @grizelcaminas
Or find her online at https://www.grizelcaminas.com/
Here are our key takeaways
What led Grizel to become a therapist who also works with the Enneagram
Grizel’s perspective on the type Four passion of Envy
The impact of social media — encountering envy, communicating pain and trauma, and striving for authenticity
Grizel’s experience with clients — creating connection, holding space for depth, & honoring their stories
Ways to connect with Grizel and her work
Resources mentioned in this episode:
The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Don Richard Riso
Underneath It All Podcast Episode with Guest Steph Barron Hall
This Week’s Guest Picks:
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Enneagram Resources for you!
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Listen to the Episode
Read the Full, Unabridged Transcript
Steph Barron Hall: Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron Hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional,
and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.
Here we are yet again on the Enneagram IRL podcast. And guess what everyone will you finally have in Enneagram four on the podcast today. And I know that you forced have been waiting a while, so I'm so excited that you'll get to hear this one today. Now, if you listen to my brief programming note last week, you would have heard that we've been having some audio issues with the software that we use to record the podcast.
And I won't get into all of the issues and all of that, that sort of thing. However, I just want you to know upfront that. The audio does sound a little garbley at times, or it sounds like you can hear the echo from one of us on the other person's mic. We did all the troubleshooting and editing and processing we could, but it still sounds a little funky. So just heads up that we know that it sounds not ideal and we're aware, and thank you so much for your patience with that.
However, I didn't want to scrap this episode, even though the audio is a little funky because I really appreciated some of the things that Grizel had to say about what it's like to be a four and what it's like to carry so much emotion around with her and what it's like to be a four on the internet. She is an outdoor influencer. I'll get it a little bit more into her role in what she does for work and all that sort of stuff in a second. But. Grizel kind of has like this interesting background and I just really wanted you to hear some of her just verbal processing. So I think that's going to give you a different shade or a different kind of flavor of type four.
Um, and I also just want to mention that initially it wasn't intentional that we would have entirely women on the podcast. But that's how it's kind of turned out and I am not mad about it. I actually really liked talking to all these different women about what it's like to be their types. Um, I know that we could get some guys or some other genders up in the podcast as well. And eventually we probably will. But just for now, this has been a really fun way to delve into the Enneagram.
So I also want to say that in general, you know, the podcast does have some You know, light swearing here and there. This podcast episode in particular has more than typical. So if that's not something you want to listen to, or if you know, little ears are around who you don't want to hear that, make sure to put headphones in or save this one for a later time.
Now that we've got those little housekeeping notes out of the way. I want to introduce you to Grizel Cominas. So Grizel is an outdoor enthusiast and therapist who uses her platform on Instagram to inspire folks. To connect with nature to support their mental health. After backpacking over 5,000 miles on the Pacific crest trail, Appalachian trail, and part of the continental divid trail, Grizel has been personally impacted by the healing that comes with mother nature and believes everyone deserves to experience that form of healing. Grizel has been featured on a variety of platforms in both mental health and outdoor spaces. Including outside magazine, REI co-op journal, blue Ridge magazine. She explores back country American foundation of suicide prevention, Talkspace, and more.
You can also find her at grizelcaminas.com, which I will, of course, link in the show notes. @grizelcaminas on Instagram, @grizelcaminason tik tok. And on Patreon at The Underneath it All podcast. By the way we do talk about this at the end, but it goes, I was podcast underneath it all recently. did an entire season on the Enneagram. So if that interests, you make sure to check that one out as well, right here in your podcast app.
Without further ado. Here we go. Here's Grizel Caminas.
Steph: Well, Grizel, welcome to the podcast. So excited you're here. Um, I know we got connected because you reached out to me about your podcast, which is really fun. Um, just talking about the Enneagram, and, and all those sorts of things.
Steph: Um, and yeah, welcome. I'm so glad you're here.
Grizel: I'm really glad to be here.
Steph: glad. Yeah. Um, I know we have connected over, obviously, like some of our experiences around social media and the engram and loving that. And then we've also connected a little bit about , some experiences around ADHD and those sorts of things. And I also know that you are a therapist. Yes?
Grizel: Yeah.
Steph: I'm really curious to hear about your experience. One of like, why did you become a therapist? , this is like one of the really interesting things,, to me having, I think you're like the third or fourth therapist I've interviewed so far.
Grizel: really?
Steph: Yeah.
Grizel: I mean, I'm not surprised by that. I feel like the Enneagram definitely brings in, uh, like, especially, I mean, as a four definitely brings in that type, at least into the, the Enneagram of and therapist. But yeah, I learned about the Enneagram in grad school, but I didn't really understand the impact of it.
Grizel: You know, I took the, we took the, I don't even know what the official long test was, but it was a very long test to figure out your type. Um, and then I definitely resonated with it, but I was so young and like not, like there was so much information coming at me from grad school anyway, um, that it was just like, I didn't really resonate as much with the Enneagram as I do now, but I feel like what has kind of the overarching resonation of, of the Enneagram has kind of been the same throughout my whole life, which is that like I have always felt this pull towards just depth and like emotional depth and understanding myself. And a lot of that came from childhood because I just, I didn't grow up with emotional depth, but felt it very deeply inside of my being and just desperately wanted to understand like people's actions versus like what they were saying. And just kind of growing up with chaos.
Grizel: It's kind of just like the thing I wanted more than anything. And, um, so growing up, having that pull and, and then really, you know, trying to understand my family dynamics, um, was kind of the reason why I was like into therapy as well. And, you know, I, I'm really, no, not really close. I am, I'm as close with my family as I think I can be.
Grizel: Um, and I feel like they. I, I just really wanted to understand them. That was probably one of the biggest things. I was like, um, I really wanted to make my parents proud. I really like, wanted them to, I really desperately wanted them to love me, and I think that was kind of why I desperately wanted to love them as well.
Grizel: So that, I feel like that's kind of been like a, a big part of why I went into mental health in the first place. Um, and it's just changed so much over the years, thankfully, Um, and yeah, I feel like that's how I got into all of these things and my relationship with it then versus my relationship with it now is just, I love my relationship with mental health so much more, and also with the Enneagram so much more. I, I appreciate it so much more.
Steph: Yeah. Yeah, I mean that, that makes so much sense to me, I think, and especially like you mentioned, you're a four. Um, and I think that that experience of like depth and like understanding and wanting to understand others, but also like searching for that within, um, you know, it makes a lot of sense.so I'm, I'm curious like how you figured out your type.
Grizel: Um, yeah. Yeah. It was, it was that test. It was, it was pretty spot on. There was a time that I was like really thinking I was actually a three. Um, but, and honestly it was when I was like, really like just driven by my job. Um, and I think it was, I think, you know, just I, first generation American, I feel like it, there's like a lot of, um, overlap with like that drive that I had.
Grizel: But honestly, the, just understanding the four more and more, I feel like it's, it's such a, um, it's, I hate that I'm gonna use this word, but it's real - journey, figuring out your type, because it's like, at first, you know, you identify with it and you're like, Oh, this is like great. Like I identify with it. And then as you start really like doing the work about it, um, and really start kind of taking, at least for me, like really diving into my shadow side and really reading about envy.
Grizel: Um, I think that's when I really started realizing how much of a four I was and, and the, the, and then practicing some of the routines that have really helped me with that shadow side of myself. Also kind of in it, like, it just really helped me understand. that I am before, but also that's not just, that's not like, not o too over identifying with just like the emotion, the whatever, you know, like those, those four characteristics.
Grizel: Um, and like expanding my, what does this mean about my growth? What does this mean about what I need to be doing to like implement the, or to like, feel like a healthy version of myself. And I feel like that's when I really started seeing the four out of me and like, as I've gotten healthier, like being proud of that, you know, just being proud of what, what that means for myself, but also having to commit to some practices.
Grizel: Take me out of my heart space. Cuz I live here. I'm always here. I'm, I'm very just, just hanging out. Um, and it's so comfortable for me and Yeah, I, when you were talking about the tea thing earlier, um, just about making tea blends for different types and stuff, I, I've been kind of thinking about things in that perspective as well, where, like, I live in the heart space, so what do I need to do to connect with my, my head and my, my body and like those, that also kind of helped me navigate where I feel like I exist.
Steph: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes so much sense. Um, that's like not an interesting thing to say in response to that, but ,
Grizel: interesting enough.
Steph: Well, I'm curious to hear more about your perspective on envy because I think that, you know, we have like these somewhat antiquated words that we use and in a lot of the Enneagram language, we use these words, but like they mean something very narrow. Um, and in. Common parlance, I'd say they mean like people equate envy with jealousy, but that's not what we're talking about when we say envy. And so I'm curious about, you know, how you understand it and then what is your relationship to it.
Grizel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the reason why I struggled with understanding my shadow side, because I didn't really, I, I am the least jealous person. Like, I'm not a jealous person by nature. Like, I, when I think of jealous, I think of, you know, just, I don't know, just like someone who's constantly comparing themselves to like, like physical comparison. I feel like, I think of, I think of like relationship comparison and like wanting partnership compare. I don't know. That's what I, that's what I thought envy wise, but I feel like understanding envy for me was that I have a really difficult time being present and seeing what I have right in front of me. And I think that, I tend to think that the grass is always greener on the other side. And as beautiful as that can be to like motivate me to like, cuz sometimes the grass is greener, sometimes it is and oftentimes it's really not. Um, and most of the times it's really not. And I think that not being driven by that envy helped me really understand how wonderful, what I, what the experience is right in front of me.
Grizel: And I think that's what the envy has really, how it's really translated for me and like what, what practices have really helped me is like meditation and like being like, okay, cuz I tend to over identify with my feelings so much that I think and feel so strongly about a situation that I don't wholeheartedly, or even like, not even wholeheartedly, but like fully see and so, and that's where the envy can kind of take hold, is like, I feel so much with my feelings, which is so great, and it's like empathic, but that's not necessarily the full situation of a circumstance or of a life experience. Um, and so being able to like, see the envy come out when I'm feeling things and being like, Okay, settle down.
Grizel: Let's settle down and just be like, what is, what do I need to do to ground myself and look at this perspective from not just the heart space, but also from like a grounded space of like all parts of myself, um, which has been so helpful to me.
Steph: Yeah. Well, and so you have all of this experience too with like through hiking and like living, you know, outdoors. I mean, I feel like your Instagram is literally like just outdoorsy,
Grizel: Yeah.
Steph: And I'm curious how those sorts of things overlap.
Grizel: Yeah, I can tell you what it used to look like and cuz I'm not sure what it's looking like now. It's been kind of hard for me to figure it out, to be honest. But, you know, Social media, I would love to do a study about like each type and what social media does to each type. I think it's so fascinating, but for me, what social media did for me was wanting more. The envy came out so hard with social media when I wasn't checking in and like, I just thought the grass was truly always greener. So I would just be putting myself in and like, and a lot of it was like, you know, from a, as a young kid, I didn't have opportunities to go hiking. I didn't have opportunities to challenge myself. And so, you know, getting, becoming an adult, I'm like, Well, this is my redemption. You know, after therapy school, I, when I took a break from practicing, I was just like, Well, I'm gonna do all these things I've always wanted to do. And I think it came from such a good place. And I think social media kind of influenced wanting more, more, more, more, more, more, more.
Grizel: And so it, it's so interesting to think back because I don't regret any of my trails. I think I needed to go through that. I honestly think I needed to go through that so much because the trails hiking, the p c t, hiking, the cdt, like the hiking, these trails got me into my head space and they got me into my body.
Grizel: And those two things I feel like I just don't naturally go to. Like I have to work so hard to get into those spaces. And so I think that's what that was doing. And I think what social media did was think that I needed to only do, that was the only way for me to get into my body space and into my, my head space.
Grizel: And I, so for, for a while it was like I was chasing that. I was chasing that desire, chasing that like, need, and it was validating. Um, and now I feel like, you know, as I've been able to like get healthier and really, honestly the Enneagram is what has helped me understand myself so much more as far as like what I need in outdoor recreation.
Grizel: Um, I've been able to like look at adventures from just a, a more grounded perspective, like not too much over, over identify with through hiking, because that's kind of what it feels like sometimes, like through hikers. Like I, I, I love us and also it's like our identity and I just don't wanna over identify with really like any aspect of my life that much.
Grizel: Like I think we're so much more complicated than that. And I know I am, and as soon as I put myself into these boxes, I'm not present and I don't want to do that for myself. So now my Instagram I feel like can be all over the place, honestly. But that's also how I am as a human. And I think. .I think it's, it's hard to, because it's, I don't know, I've, we could go on a marketing conversation forever because like, I feel like marketing is so interesting, but like now it's, I feel like the way that I approach outdoor recreation has been just like a, I do what I need, what I need, I do what I want, and I'm constantly checking in with my body to see what my needs are and what my family needs.
Grizel: And like, there's just so much more to ac outdoor recreation for me than just through hiking. Did that make sense?
Steph: Yeah, definitely. And I, I think, um, one of the things that I see a lot with, um, cuz you talked a little bit about the over-identification, right? I think that, that a lot of us do that with our work. Um, but I think especially for fours and, and maybe all heart types in general, but um, especially for is like finding. when you're on that search for identity and image and worth, the over-identification is like the natural follow on, right? Because it's I've gotta find it somewhere. And what if it's here? Like what if this is my trues most authentic, most real, like, introspective self, is this person I've discovered when I'm on this specific trail, like one of these big like banner trails, um, like Pacific. Cuz you were saying like, uh, P C T and then like Appalachian Trail, right? I don't know the other one that you referred to.
Grizel: yeah, yeah. The CDT is the other one.
Steph: What is that?
Grizel: The Continental Divide Trail.
Steph: Oh cool. Okay. Yeah, I, Oh my gosh. I can hear that sense of Finding something to kind of attach to, but also like the push and pull of wanting to then find something to attach to within yourself. and I think a lot of the time I see this a lot with fours who are like solopreneur type of people. Um, they get accused of like being really wishy washy because people think like, Oh, you're just doing anything like all the time. And what I actually think is happening is you're asking like what is actually most aligned here?
Steph: Um, and like always working to kind of bring things back into alignment. And sometimes that just looks chaotic, even though internally, like it's, it's intended to, to find something that feels really true.
Grizel: Yeah. I feel like it's messy. I think, and Fours are okay with being messy, you know, Like that is real. I think that, I mean, I've definitely been accused of that and honestly there was some accuracy with that. Like at some point, you know, like, and that's kind of where I'm at now is like there was like this chase of like trying to be, like trying to find our most authentic selves.
Grizel: And that, that I do think comes with a really good intention and I think that's why it's so important to commit to principles that are aligned with who we are as fours or who, who I am as a human. Like I think that's why meditation has been really important to me is like I think that we can go into such rabbit holes of chasing authenticity when in reality the most authentic thing I can do for myself is often just being present.
Grizel: And I think that's what I've been like really understanding more recently. And there are times where it goes into like different, like, you know, because life circumstances happen and like you have to adjust and you have to realign. Um, but I think the chase in the past, I often wonder like if I was chased, like if, if it wasn't, it was almost like self-induced, you know what I mean?
Grizel: Like self-induced, um, trying, like making not, I don't wanna say I'm making a problem from nothing, because I don't think that that was, that was necessarily it either. But just like, just seeing a situation from a, a perspective that a lot of people have a difficult time seeing naturally that Fours very easily see, and I think it's, it's this like as someone that just like, I value honesty.
Grizel: I value integrity more than anything and being honest with myself, and I think people admire that from me, but what they don't see is like all the work that it takes to do that looks messy. And it's not fun work for most people. No one wants to actually look at themselves in the mirror. And I'm constantly looking at myself in the mirror.
Grizel: I'm constantly looking at my own reflection to make sure that I'm like being in line with my values with who I am. And I think sometimes you don't like what you see in the mirror and like I personally will make a change to make sure that I am doing what I can to be the best version of myself where I think a lot of people and, and that
Grizel: and I'm, what I'm learning now, what I didn't know before is that doesn't have to be this dramatic change in your life to realign yourself and look at yourself in the mirror. And it's just off. It's often now just like micro adjustments and that's how I've been kind of looking at it now, is like “Griz, Like I know that you wanna like do a dramatic change because you're not in line with yourself, but like that's okay to not be in line all of the time. And just like, what can you do? What's one small step that you can do today that'll be more in line with your truest self?” And that's kind of what I've been learning is just like it's, it doesn't have to be as
Grizel: Um, it doesn't have to even appear as wishy washy. Um, although it's, it's, I can't deny, it's still super, super hard because life is hard and I think I'm really impacted by my environment. I'm very impacted, impacted by my circumstances, and that makes me a great therapist. And sometimes that makes me also, uh, wishy washy and inconsistent.
Grizel: And I, I can kind of tell my triggers now and I know what my triggers are and like I know what kind of. I know the circumstances that, that kind of turned me very fast. So like social situations, like I am not super social and like I've had to accept that about myself. I thought I was such a social person, but I'm not, and I'm not, and I am actually really impacted by the energy that I'm giving to other people.
Grizel: So like, I have to constantly be mindful about what social situations am I putting myself? Do I have the room to be able to make sure that I'm gonna not like, use Or like, am I gonna be depleted after that social situation? And then I'm gonna have that wishy washy kind of like, well now I can't do anything.
Grizel: Like it's, it's, and it's just figuring out what, how much energy I have to make sure that I'm doing, I, I'm centering myself first and always making sure I have enough energy for that. And then kind of looking at my sort of being like, Okay, well what can I actually do about each of them?
Steph: mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And I think what feels really challenging sometimes, I don't know if you felt this way, but I've definitely felt this way, is like, Sometimes it feels like being on a bit of a public stage, like you're not allowed to be messy. Like you're not allowed to be figuring things out. You're not allowed to have shifting relationships and just thinking about things and processing things and changing your mind and all that kind of stuff.
Steph: And I mean, I tend to be some, like, I'm like, I don't really wanna share my life on Instagram, but I also know that, um, that's how I could make more money and like, do I wanna monetize everything that exists in my life? Not really at all. And so it's been challenging and I think for me, I'm grateful that, I mean obviously like, I don't know how old you are and stuff, but
Steph: I look at some people who are very young and like, like maybe in their early twenties or even teenagers who are becoming like these famous people on social media, and I'm like, Oh God. I am like so grateful that that did not happen to me because I could not have handled it. Um, and I would've been a wreck. I think I would've turned into like, I don't know, I just would've been a wreck. So
Grizel: Dude, I would've had a Miley Cyrus moment for sure. Like several. Yeah. I'm 30 and I still think it was like, I don't know if I was still too young. I honestly think 25 was too young to start doing social media stuff. I think I, I think there's a balance. Um, I really liked what you said, like I thought about that, like, I've thought about this so much because especially as a four, I really, I fucking know pain and know how to talk about it, and I think I'm very good at communicating pain and I don't know if social media is a space for it. And I think that social media and, and I think I would be a lot more successful and I was a lot, lot more successful. I was getting the followers when I was oversharing that part of my myself. And so, because unfortunately what our system elevates, I think is really fucked up and not okay that like we are, we elevate victim mentality.
Grizel: We, we elevate this gas lighting mentality of one another and trauma and drama and it's like, that's what gets elevated. And so for me, like it's been hard to figure out what balance of like how much do I share about myself that is true and real, but, but isn't. And isn't retraumatizing to anybody else. Um, and that's really important to me.
Grizel: But also with that mark, which is the weird part, is the marketing strategy that goes with that, which is fucking hard because like, am I using my trauma to make money? Cuz that's not okay. And I've seen that happen so much in social media. Um, and I feel like the balance for me is like, kind of what we've been talking about is that grounding space of like, why am I sharing this?
Grizel: Am I ready to share this? Am I ready to receive the energy from other people about this situation? Am I ready to give the energy that it takes to share what this information is going to be holding? And I think that's kind of where I go with, with, with sharing who I am as a, as a person is like always trying to ask myself these questions when I have a little checklist now of things I asked myself before I post something and it's just like really having those hard, convers uh, hard questions for myself because it's sad to me that I'm still like wanting that kind of not sad. It's, it's human of me to still want that kind of validation. But it's like something I have to kind of always just be keeping in check for myself is cuz I wanna feel authentic and as someone that over identifies with my feelings and like really understands them, that does feel really fucking good to be validated in my pain.
Grizel: But like, I don't necessarily need to be validated in my pain all the time. And I think that we as a society tend to do that. And I, I think that we stay in narratives that circulate in our bodies for far too long. I think I did that and I, I. It was self-destructing because I didn't let go of a, a narrative because I was constantly sharing this narrative to a public audience and getting that validation.
Grizel: It's like, why would I wanna leave that space? This feels like so good to feel, I like understood by strangers and then, you know, being able to Realize that, catch that, and then be like, Okay, well that's that first of all, that that's not a two-way relationship that I want to be validated by in that space.
Grizel: Like that is trauma. Like my trauma is so real in that space. And like I share space with people as a therapist in that space. And I've worked so hard for that client to be able to share in that moment. And meanwhile I'm doing that online with people that I don't know, Like that doesn't make any sense.
Grizel: Like I can't be validated by, by strangers in that, in that depth. And so now I feel like it's knowing this, the conversations that I can have, it's knowing the conversations that I can't have. It's, it's assessing honestly what my life is looking like in the present moment, um, as far as sharing. And I think that's what looks wishy washy.
Grizel: And I wish that people understood that. It's like, just because I'm not sharing something doesn't mean I'm wishy washy. It's just like there's a time and there's a place, and I take that very seriously and just because you don't take that seriously, that's fine, but like I don't have to like be affected by your thoughts and that that.
Grizel: Irritates me so much. I've been harassed violently online because of this topic, because of me not choosing to share something that was really traumatic for me that happened publicly and I not being able to say it because I'm not healed from it. And it's been almost a year and a half, still not fully healed from it.
Grizel: Still haven't mentioned it. Still not going to, because I'm not, that's not someone's space to be like, I talk about that with my therapist, like who I've had for over a year and like that is one of the few people I talk to about it. But like when you, the stuff happens in a public space, people feel so entitled to it, and I think it's because of this pattern I'm seeing with social media of like people victimizing themselves.
Grizel: And being validated by that victim mentality. And then that, and then people being entitled to the victim mentality. And it's just this unhealthy cycle that I just can't be a part of and won't be a part of. And I think that's the hardest thing as, and I'm sure you probably understand it to a point too, cuz the Enneagram, it's, it is a deep resource and I don't think people realize how deep at the Enneagram actually is.
Grizel: And like choosing to share what you have to share about it and not, and I'm sure like holding back other things because you have to protect yourself first and foremost.
Steph: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and I think too,
Steph: yeah, it's just really interesting because there is an assumption that people think like, Oh, I'm getting the whole you when I'm reading your posts. And that's just not how it is. Like this is, this is writing to a specific purpose, but it's like, no, like if you wanna know the deeper stuff, like, come on over here and like, join my program or join my group, or like do coaching and stuff.
Steph: And, and typically I find that when people are being so intensely critical, um, it is fairly voyeuristic. Like they're not the people who have any experience doing this sort of thing. It's very frustrating, but, I think something that you said was so poignant too, because I think one of the things that happens a lot with fours is Because our society so prioritizes the head energy, the head intelligence, et cetera, the heart energy is very undervalued and really look down upon. And so it feels really good to put it out there and to hear somebody else validate it. But at the end of the day, like no one else can actually validate what you're feeling. You know, like it's really your experience and like the only way for you to feel like it's valid is for you to feel like it's valid.
Grizel: Yeah. And like finding spaces to validate those without, and not be your spaces. I think, you know, you're talking about monetizing things that, uh, parts of ourselves, and I think that's something that like, you know, I, I've really, like, as a kid, I, I always wanted to be a musician. I was just like, I thought I was gonna be, I really thought I was gonna be a full-time musician growing up.
Grizel: No joke. Like I, and practiced was good enough to like, and fuck, I should say I was doing that, that was my job. At one point when I was living in Nashville doing that and realizing that I don't need to, like, I, like, I don't need to be validated, like I need, I need spaces for myself that I can validate my own feelings without anybody else like, By myself and like music has always been that place for me.
Grizel: And I, I honestly, I still struggle with it. I think there's like, I think life in general is like a continuum of spaces that are changing. I feel like, you know, just maybe there's a space or time that I, that music could be more of that space and like, you know, I just think that things can change and flow depending on what, where you're at in your life.
Grizel: But like for now, like I've been, music has been just such a sacred space for me lately. And like, just knowing that what does that mean is like, okay, well I, it's, it's so valuable to me right now that like, I don't want anyone else in that. And like honoring those safe spaces that I have for myself to make sure that I'm empathizing and I'm feeling what I can feel.
Grizel: Without, with freedom and without fucking anybody else's input. And without what? Like, and I need that. I need it so much. I need a space like that at all times that I can make sure that I'm doing that consistently. And I think with, yeah, with with, if we, if you don't have that space as a four, I don't know, man, that makes me nervous.
Grizel: That makes me nervous for anyone that doesn't have a safe space, that they can be themselves. Cuz like I, our natural instinct as fours is to feel so deeply and like, you're going to find that space regardless. Um, it just not, may not be a safe space. And like that's what I saw my like, you know, um, you were saying, um, not re trauma, um, self gas lighting, but like, that's what you end up doing cuz you just start, end up and it's not this like, it's not this.
Grizel: Even conscious decision. I don't think, like, I think you do that with like, I did that with friendships. Like I just started finding places where I could fully feel, think I thought I could fully feel and be like, be my truest feeling self, and then it would be really, Not good because the other person was not able to hold that space for me, or they weren't able, or vice versa.
Grizel: Like I couldn't hold space for them cuz they didn't understand the depth of their emotions. And I'm just like, how are you not seeing this? And like, that's where the expectations of people come, come into play. And it can just get so messy, so fast if you do not have your own safe space that you can fully be yourself.
Grizel: Because that part isn't going to change. And that's something that I've had to like really sit with. It's like I've tried so hard to change this part of myself. Like I, like you were saying, like I wanted to be. And you know, the funny part is like, as I've surrendered this, I've, I have never been, I've never felt so comfortable leaning into my five wing more than this season of my life.
Grizel: And I fucking love it. And it's been so fun and, but it's because I've surrendered to this reality that I am, I am here so often and it, and most people don't know how to handle that. And I've had to accept that as like not many people get me and I, that that sucks sometimes. You know? Like, because I feel so deeply and that's like where that unique different thing comes in, which I feel like also has a whole, We could talk about that too.
Grizel: It's like, I thought that was so different than what it actually is. It's just like, I feel, I know, I feel very deeply and that's what it is. And now that I've like surrendered to that, I don't feel like I have to change that part of myself. I've just been like, Okay, this is where I can go do that. I have my amazing husband that like, loves that part of me and I have a, like, I have a home that I am able to feel like myself.
Grizel: I have like spaces that I do that in now and like accepting that a part myself has felt so freeing because of the constructs I've created for myself to fully experience. my, the capacity for feeling in healthy ways. It's been so beautiful.
Steph: Yeah. That's incredible. I'm really curious with all of this, and, and really the way that you go about it, How does that show up when you work with your clients, in therapy, in your work
Grizel: I think it's honestly like, you know, I, I was my friend's therapist for a long time. I, I was, and, and that wasn't good. That wasn't working for me. I feel like people, and still to this day, I'm still struggling with it cuz I think people, um, like being a therapist is the most natural role in my entire life.
Grizel: I have never felt, I have never felt more naturally fit for a job besides being a therapist, it's like not working. It's wild to me how simple it is, and me and my therapist talk about it all the time. It's just like being a therapist is not, is who I am. And I, I feel like, because it's so natural for me to like, think, think these ways.
Grizel: Um, but I think it's, once again, not over identifying with that aspect of my life either and finding some form of balance. Because, I mean, the reason why I love being a therapist so much is that I get to do the work. I get to reflect the truth of someone's beauty and like their, like who I get to be a reflection of someone.
Grizel: Who cannot see their reflection. And I know how powerful that is. I know it to such a deep level to finally be able to see myself as I am and to be able to show someone who they are is such an honor and I have to like work on. And something I'm working on now is like figuring out. Cause I can't do it all the time cuz it's like so much, um, energy that I give to my clients.
Grizel: So it's finding a balance with like. Being a therapist and making sure that I'm still getting re replenished after the work that I do. Um, and it's, it, so I, I'm right now pursuing part-time work because I just, like, I was doing full-time and it was just honestly like the caseload and with everything going on in the world, it was just too much for me.
Grizel: And I was like, it sucked to have to say that, but like, also really proud of myself to be like, I can't hold this. I thought I could hold a lot of space for people and I can, but like there's only so much that I can hold that I'm doing like the best job as, as a therapist for my clients. And so that it's like, not that I'm being as present as I can be with them, so I can be a good reflection to them.
Grizel: Not, not a a therapist that's showing up who's like exhausted and not able to show the capacity of who these people are that are, I'm holding space for.
Steph: Yeah. Yeah. Well that makes sense too. And I think I, even though I am, you know, in the heart center, right, fairly emotional, whatever, I tend to not be the type of person who like feels. Like, I don't feel like I'm carrying that stuff after I leave that session, but I could imagine for you as a four, like there's just so much more that you're carrying. Um, and that has to be really hard to figure out how to set those boundaries when it's somewhat,
Grizel: Part, part of your, Well, it's like, part of your job is to feel like, right? Like they say that the most, like one of the most powerful healing aspects of trauma is connection with another human, empathy. And like that is our skill as fours is empathy. Like we feel what others are feeling and to such a degree and like, wow.
Grizel: Like the fact that that is one of the biggest tools for healing someone's trauma. Like that is so honoring, right? Like that's such a, and that is such a heavy thing. But then the healthcare system just fucks everything up. Specifically for therapists, because they want it to be based off this medical model.
Grizel: That makes literally no fucking sense. It, it, it's a mind fuck to me. I don't get it. And it's like, yeah, you need to see this many clients and this much time, and then guess what? After you're done seeing clients, you got five hours of paperwork. And guess what, After that you have to do this. And then after this, it's just like, are you joking?
Grizel: Do you realize like what we, like, what we just did? And part of me honestly accepting, once again, I'm a four, I, I overly, not, I, no, I don't even wanna say overly because this, the stories I hear are not, they're not being overly dramatic about their stories. They are fucking sick or they are going through ridiculously difficult things.
Grizel: Like I, I have, I mean, I'm sure you have a therapist friend, like, you know, the stories we hear are not like, they're not, they're not, not heavy . I don't know how else to say it. They're not. And I worked with. , mostly brown people who are coming from, you know, like are trying to get their family to America and like have gotten deported and like, just like shitty terrible situations that are so unfair, like, so unfair.
Grizel: Just such a like inhumane level. And so for me to be like, okay, this isn't just like, as much as the healthcare system wants you to look at these, your clients as like, you have seven fucking clients a day, and like, you have to do this. It's like, no, that's not the reality of my situation. Like, this is like, I'm doing so much work.
Grizel: Like, just like not even, I'm not even talking about just therapy in itself. Like I'm doing social work. I'm doing, I'm trying to figure out how I can get this, this family food on the table. Like who do I need to contact, whatever that is. And it's just like, it's not realistic to look at the, the people's mental health in this, this with that model, knowing how much you are, you have to kind of take home in order for these people to be okay. And so that's why I've had to take like some steps back now and be like, Okay, well this isn't, I still love the work that I'm doing. I want to do the work that I'm doing, but I have to reassess how I'm gonna do that in a more sustainable way for the client and for myself.
Grizel: It's been hard.
Steph: Well, and I think if I, if I remember correctly, your, your background's in like mental health counseling, but The type of work that you're doing is really trying to push toward that wraparound care model and like looking at the more systemic issues that typically social work programs look into more.
Grizel: I thought about that, but I'm now as like, unfortunately social work, there's only so much you can do with social work now too. It just feels like kind of, and this is melancholy as fuck, but it's true. Like the systemic issues are so, they're so far gone that like, honestly, I've kind of just been like, okay.
Grizel: I can't fix this, so what can I do? And honestly, I've been, I'm, I'm more taking a step back from that aspect of things and trying to, I'm looking more into community based services where it's more just like there, the services are here and like that's all I can control is like, or all I can really be a part of.
Grizel: Cause I was doing so much online work with that, with that company. And it was just like too much social work via telehealth. And so now I'm trying to like connect to like my community more and just being like, okay, like this is, I can talk to you in person and like you, we are seeing the same client and like now kind of just re just shift my, shift my energy to like collaboration with other people like more directly so that I can help my clients more. So that's honestly been really, really helpful.
Steph: yeah, yeah, yeah, I could imagine. Um, and I can imagine that being exhausting, especially cause before, I know we talked about your heritage and how important that is to you and how you are seeing, you're like, Wow, these people are just like me. And All of these things are happening to them and it's awful. And.
Grizel: it's hard, dude. It's heavy. It's heavy. it's heavy, and I feel like it's the work that I have to be doing. Like it's also, which is like also a good feeling too, to know where you're supposed to be at. I think that as a, for like I need, I need that kind of certainty. I need that kind of like, um, I, I can't, I can't not put my heart into what I'm doing regardless.
Grizel: Whatever it is, it's always going to be there. And I think, you know, accepting that has meant like balancing how much , because I'm giving all my heart into everything that I do, I need to just make sure that I'm like also taking a step back to like get out of my heart space a little bit and like make sure that like I'm, I'm feeding my, my body and feeding my brain and like doing everything I can so that I can be in my heart space for my clients as much as I can.
Grizel: And it's hard though, man. It takes so much man. I, I feel like I, I've always wondered this because I have, I actually hung out with two other four friends yesterday we went to, I have a lot of four friends, which is really interesting cuz I've read somewhere that like a lot of fours don't really mesh well with other fours.
Grizel: But that's just been like not my experience at all. Like I have several very close four friends and they're very deep friendships and it's this like unspoken whatever. But I would love to know about other fours is, like do you have as much structure in your life as I do like, and then adhd, fucking, all of that definitely plays into this, but just like I need structure so desperately, and that's what I've been surrendering to and I just don't know as of four, if you can do it any other way.
Grizel: Because of how much, because of how much I need to get out of my heart space, I need, I need a reminder. I have reminders, literally three reminders on my phone to check in with my body and to check in with my brain because I am just there and I, It's so effortless.
Steph: Yeah. It's so effortless. Like be in your heart space. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm just narrating that because I noticed that you pointed to your heart
Steph: okay. So I do have a couple more questions, but really quickly, I would love to hear, you know, how can people connect with you? I know you have your podcast underneath it all, and you, this season's been all about the Ingram. Um, but how else can people connect with you? , what do you wanna share with people that they take from you?
Grizel: man, I thought about this question because I, I, for how simple of a question it is, it was complicated for me to answer it because I, this was like, Yeah. Anyways, I feel like the best way to connect with me is probably through Patreon, um, because I feel. That is a space I'm giving my heart to more. And I feel like other people are giving their heart to.
Grizel: And the reason why I love it so much is because it's just a bunch of us who are just trying to, who are just open to having these kind of conversations about just like mental health and like asking questions and just like sitting with things and like connecting. And I think that for me, that I'm looking for connection with people.
Grizel: I'm looking for connection with others who are just trying to like, who want to know, who wanna have these kind of conversations about what, regardless of your type, like what, what's going help you become the best version of yourself. Cuz I think that we all do want that. I do believe that. I think we all want to feel true to who we are.
Grizel: I think that's, that's, that's in our, yeah, I think that's just who we are. And so that is a really good space. And then I would say that I'm coming out with workshops and I'm so excited about the workshops. I'm gonna be doing one about ADHD and like what that, what that has, what it actually means, how to not like, how to take, how to take control of that diagnosis without also over identifying with it.
Grizel: Because that's something that is a really tough balance. And I think that I would love to see some over that. But like honestly, these workshops are going to be about learning together. And I, I even as a therapist, there is so much that I don't know, and there's so much that I. Why I, I learned through other people and through other people's experiences and that's the kind of spaces that we're trying to create.
Grizel: And thank God I have help , um, with someone helping me kind of like orchestrate a lot of these things. So the, the workshops, but the Patreon's gonna have the workshops available and then there's like a newsletter on my website that's gonna have all of the information as well. Um, and then I would say, yeah, the podcast is also a really good way to like just stay integrated with what's going on.
Grizel: Um, We've been focusing a lot on the enneagram. I did the first four episodes and the last two episodes have been about, one has been about ADHD and one has been about medication and just like, just taking a break from it for myself honestly, cuz it was so, it's, I put my heart into the podcast of course. And I'm just like, I need to take a break for a second and like talk about these little other things cuz ADHD is something I'm really, really like, I've had to learn for myself and like a lot of my friends have gotten, um, also diagnosed.
Grizel: So that, and then medication is just so much stigma around it. And so it's been fun to just kind of break it up a little bit.
Steph: Cool. That's so exciting. Awesome. Um, okay, my last two questions also. I will link everything in the show notes, so if you listen to that and you want us like check out any of that stuff, make sure to do that in the show notes, um, because everything will be there.
Steph: Tell me about a book that has helped you refreshed you or shaped you in the lastyear
Grizel: I have a book, I wrote a book down, but I'm just taking a second glance. I, um, can I say two books?
Steph: You know what? I always say no, but everyone says it anyway
Grizel: fuck no, no, no. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not gonna be those per that person.
Steph: Because everyone else should have already.
Grizel: No. Yeah, exactly. I can't be like everyone else. Okay. Um, I, I'm gonna go for what? The og, the wisdom of the enneagram, man. I've torn this book apart and I think it's helped me so much because, I as a therapist, it's helped me in my career. It's helped me understand, like I've done Enneagram, especially with my, like my, my, um, younger twenties, like love stuff like that. So getting to do the Enneagram with them has been really helpful. And honestly it's helped me like give them practical routines. I'm like, Hey, let's just try this. Like, at the end of the session, once we've done a lot of the work, it's like, okay, like what are some things that we can help you with? And like, so knowing their type has helped, it's helped me honestly understand envy so much.
Grizel: I think that that's what I loved about this specific resource for me, is like understanding that it's, it's not about jealousy as much as it is about not being, it's the lack of being present and the fear that comes with not being present. And so that, that has really helped me with myself and it's also helped me with my relationship with my husband.
Grizel: I feel like I, when I can, When he's not doing so great. And I'm like, I don't know what's happening. He's a nine and he's just such a little cute mystery. Um, I never know, like he's just, I don't know, he's just such a cutie, but like, I don't know what's going on in his head. And so I'll just like kind of open it up and just be like, What is going on here?
Grizel: Like, is he just like aloof in this space right now? Like, what's this? And so I just really like it for how clear it is. I love how it gives you, it asks you questions. I think that's important to me. And yeah, I love this little book, massive book
Steph: Yeah. I know. I love it too. It's, it's, it's such a good one.
Steph: Um, okay. I love it.
Steph: wait, do you wanna say the other book?
Grizel: definitely don't, I definitely don't ,
Steph: Okay. No, we'll pretend that never
Grizel: Actually, please don't cut it out. I wanna,
Grizel: I want it to be known that I also said that
Steph: Yeah. *laughs* So what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?
Grizel: Hmm. Um, I feel like this mentality, “strong body, strong mind”, it's something how, it's super simple, but it's something that I'm constantly going to, I don't need to be reminded that I have a strong heart. That's like very obvious to me. Um, and it happened when I was on the Continental Divide Trail last year and I, no, it happened before I was training for it and I was with my coach and I was fucking pissed.
Grizel: I was so pissed. I was like just literally pushing my bike up a massive mountain because I couldn't ride up it cuz I was exhausted and I wasn't good enough, literally, physically good enough to like, Do the trail that I needed to at that moment. And I was just like, I just like thrown my bike to the side and I was just sitting crying and I just heard my coach at the top of the hill just like scream, strong body, strong mind, and like I don't, it, it was just this like weird moment cuz I was just already self deprecating in my body and my head and I'm just like, I can't do this.
Grizel: I can't believe you even thought that you could do this. I thought, I can't believe you even thought you could bike this trail. I could do whatever. And it was just this, this really sweet moment where it was this connection for myself that I, it's not it, it's not just because I have a strong heart that I can do the things that I do, but it's also because I'm work, working on strengthening my body and also strengthening my mind. Like I have the mental capacity, I have the physical capacity to do the things that I do if I'm able to just see it. And, um, I feel like I have been really. trying so hard to just see my strength in other aspects of my life that are not so obvious to me. And I feel like as a four, you know, I, man, I just, I'm so much more than what I feel, and I think that I'm excited. and as I've been challenging myself in different weird ways and it what may even appear wishy washy once again, like I was doing inversions the other day. I didn't know I could do an inversion. I've never done an inversion ever. And I did it and I was like strong body, strong fucking mind cuz like you can do things.
Grizel: And just because the strengths that each of us are given are super strong, it doesn't have to be the only part of us that is strong. And I think I've needed that reminder a lot lately. Like my work isn't everything. And that my husband too, man, like he is so, he's in the body space. He's just like so over, like over identifies with his work so much and it like we had this huge talk yesterday, two days ago about like, babe, like you are so much more than your job.
Grizel: And like you're so much more than the body that you like, Like there's so much more to you than just this and like, like helping him, seeing That he has a strong heart and strong mind and like just whatever that balance For me, I feel like that's been so important for myself to see myself as strong body, strong mind, and then seeing other people for their strong heart for like just seeing people's strengths and that are not so obvious has been so valuable for myself and also for other people.
Grizel: And yeah, it's just been something over the last, really the last year and a half that I've been like grounding myself in and just like when I'm feeling not great about myself, it's like, no, like you're fine. You have a strong body. I was, and like able too, like I'm just, I have an abled body, I have an abled mine like that is also, so it's something I just don't wanna take for granted ever. as a four, that who's always looking at all of the, the next steps that's like, no, no, no. Like you are strong as you are, you are strong in your body, you're strong and here, and that's, that's enough. It’s been really powerful
Steph: Mm-hmm. really powerful.
Steph: Yeah. Yeah. And I can see how like looking at the, even, you know, Ingram language, like looking at the different intelligence centers and seeing where you over identify, and, you know, learning to, you know, channel some attention to, those other spaces can be really helpful.
Grizel: So helpful. I, I think that that's like where a lot of the work can actually, like that's something I've, I feel like, has changed my perspective on the Enneagram. And I think that like, I think there's so much and, and it helps you see the beauty of other people too. And I think that's something that we could always do.
Grizel: We could always, it'll always help seeing the perspectives of other people, and I think that has really helped me as well.
Steph: Yeah. Well thank you so much for joining me. Um, this has been fantastic and I'm excited for people to hear your perspective. I think just because, I think that obviously every four is really different, and I don't just say that to flatter y'all, like I know that it seems like that. But, but I think that, um, there's something to that amount of like depth And consideration that goes into everything. And I think it's a strength that we often miss, um, when we are just like, well, fours are so emotional, blah, blah, blah. you know, I think that you really brought to light some of the different aspects of the, four, and the ways that you can like, process through them and, and, and just find a different path. And I think that's really beautiful. So thank you
Grizel: thank you. Yeah. Thanks for hearing me and thank you for not like. .Yeah. Just seeing, you said some really validating things and, especially just like, yeah, the, the, it, it hurts to hear the wishy washy stuff, but it's like, man, I never put that word to, I've never put that word to like that feeling, but that's how it feels so often and like so misunderstood because of that. So thank you for just not shaming that and like, thank you for just, Yeah. It's like letting me be myself and like valuing my perspective and valuing me. It does. It just definitely, fuck, It means so much to me to feel like being able to like, feel seen for who I am and not, and it not be a bad thing.
Steph: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I'm so glad we were able to share this, this space, so thank you.
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at Nine Types Co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you.
I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Dr Dream Chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify.
