Freedom in Stoicism as an Enneagram 9 with Sarah Mikutel
Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, the weekly podcast where we go beyond Enneagram theory and dive into practical understanding, new clarity, and fresh insight. We’re talking about how each type is in REAL LIFE so you can remember – you’re more than just a number.
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Sarah Mikutel. Sarah is an American writer and coach and host of the LIVE Without Borders podcast. In 2010, at the advice of a stranger, Sarah traded New York City for a small town in Italy, obtained dual citizenship within two months, and has been living the expat / location independent dream ever since. (She may look like Type 7, but — surprise! — she leads with 9). As a student of Stoic philosophy — the foundation of modern cognitive behavioral therapy — Sarah takes an evidenced-based approach to her coaching. This includes goal mapping and habit building that leads to long-lasting, transformational results.
In the episode, we discuss the energizing concept of Stoicism and grasp the empowering idea of living your life to the fullest and what exactly that means as Sarah shares her experiences and knowledge as a Self- Preservation Nine.
Follow Sarah on Instagram: @sarahmikutel
Or connect with her online: https://sarahmikutel.com/
Here are a few key takeaways:
What is Stoicism and how does it play a role in Sarah's life?
Sarah taking risks and making big moves as an Enneagram Nine
Learning to be comfortable with being center stage and taking up space
Identifying what we can and can’t control and approaching life accordingly
Connect with Sarah and her work
Resources mentioned in this episode:
The Passions and The Virtues of the Enneagram | Nine Types Co. Blog
Podcast Launch Academy with Sarah
Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman
Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant
This Week’s Guest Picks:
As an Amazon affiliate, I may earn a small commission from qualifying purchases. Affiliate links are a simple (and free to you!) way to support my work 😊
Enneagram Resources for you!
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Listen to the Episode
Read the Full, Unabridged Transcript
Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron Hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.
Well, hello. I am so glad to be back with you today for this episode. And I just, I know I say this every single time, but I love this conversation. Today I am interviewing Sarah Mikutel, a writer, And a podcaster and a coach. And an Enneagram learner and teacher, and also has studied stoicism extensively. And when Sarah first spoke with me about stoicism, Imean, I genuinely didn't know—
I knew that the thing existed. Right? You know, I said, you know, I remember from Philosophy class in college. That we had to learn about the Stoics, but I didn't necessarily know all of the different threads that came from that. And, um, the different thought processes And theories and all these different aspects to it.
With that said, I also just have to say upfront that I find Sarah to be somebody who really does Live this out. Uh, Sarah Is very much a person who approaches life as if like today is your only day. You do don't know what else is coming. So like live today fully. like, make it count, make it matter.
And you might think that's very seven-ish and we will talk about that, a touch, but She's actually type nine and I really love her perspective and all these different things that she brings to the table in terms of Learning about herself and being really self-reflective. And if you are familiar with the passions of the Enneagram,
You know that the passion of type nine is sloth. And when we talk about sloth, it's not You know, being lazy or, or needing a nap or anything like that. It's, it's actually a psychospiritual laziness, meaning that the effort it takes To actually look inward and do a lot of the inner work and to get really curious about yourself and to Not only explore, but to kind of push yourself into More of taking action with what you're learning in your inner work. That can be quite challenging.
And it can be even really difficult for, for nines to one, be inspired to do that work. Two, to actually, you know, do the work and then, three to Not only look at it internally, but to do something externally with it. And I find that In Sarah's work both, you know, within herself as well as In all of these different avenues that she's pursued in her career.
She really Has Found a way. To do inner work that works for her. And to step away from the psycho-spiritual laziness Um, that is kind of the crux of the issue for type nine. Um, and if you are a nine before you get up in arms, just Please keep in mind that we all have our things. We all have our passions. If you wanna read all Nine of them. Um, I actually have an article or blog post on our website that you can check out. I will link it in the show notes. And our passions are embarrassing and gross And Uncomfortable for all of us. And they're often very subconscious. So sometimes if we see it externally, we don't always resonate with it. But when we Kind of get really curious about it and look deeper, then we can see how clear it is beneath the surface. So With that said, I am so excited for you to hear from Sarah.
And she also Has her own podcast, which is called Live Without Borders and she talks about how to move Overseas, um, from the US. Because that's where, you know, she originally came from, so from the USto move overseas to Live as an expat, wherever you are. And. Like the easiest places to move to, How to navigate that process and then, She talks about all sorts of different things there, as well as Wellness and wellbeing And, socialism as well. So we touch on those things today, but I definitely recommend going and checking out her podcast, if any of that is of interest to you because. She also, you know, tailors it a bit towards single women who want to do this. And it's just so cool to see her living out that dream.
And inspiring others to do the same and really stepping into her own. And contributing something really meaningful. That helps a lot of people. And also, if you are a podcaster, she has a podcasting course. We don't talk about it much in the episode, but she does have that offer as well. So I will link her website in the show notes and you can find all of that and more, there.
And now for her formal introduction. Sarah Mytel is an American writer and coach and host of the live without borders podcast. In 2010 at the advice of a stranger, Sarah traded New York city for a small town in Italy, obtained dual citizenship within two months and has been living the expat location, independent dream ever since. She may look like a type seven, but surprise! She leads with type nine.
As a student of stoic philosophy, which is the foundation of modern cognitive behavioral therapy, Sarah takes an evidence based approach to her coaching. This includes goal mapping and habit building that lead to longlasting transformational results. So I will link everything you need to know about Sarah in the show notes.
But before we begin, I just want to let you know that she has an audio course called Calm the Chaos, where she walks through What actually are the different virtues of the Enneagram types, but She's talking more so about stoic philosophies and helping you Get space from your emotions to feel less anxious to Have more Joy and be more present in those sorts of things. And I just know that Sarah puts a lot of thought and energy into everything that she does. So this is going to be a fantastic course.
And right now, the proceeds of the course are going to a nonprofit supporting people of Ukraine. So if You are interested in this course at all. Make sure you check out the show notes.
And I hope you enjoy this episode.
Before we get into today's episode, I want to talk to you about subtypes. Now, Subtypes have been transformational in my own Enneagram journey, and they've also been so incredibly helpful for my clients and my core students, and even some of the teams that I've worked with.
So with that said, I want you to head over to the show notes or go to ninetypes.co/subtypes. And download my free subtype guide. You'll get a breakdown of what the whole word means. The entire concept, All 27 subtypes, and you will unlock this new understanding of yourself and the people around you, and you'll have a new way to apply the Enneagram in your daily life.
So again, head to ninetypes.co/subtypes, or check out that link in the show notes to learn more. Enjoy.
Steph: Sarah Welcome to an Enneagram IRL. I'm so glad you're here.
Sarah: Thank you for having me
Steph: Of course. Um, I'm really excited to talk with you today because I think that your specific, like combination of topics that you talk about is so fascinating. And of course, selfishly, I just wanna learn more about stoicism and all of that and everything that, that entails. Um, so I would love to, you know, kind of get started by talking a little bit about that, if that's okay. Um, what is stoicism? I just introduced it in the intro and I'm sure people are like, Hmm. And I think people have misconceptions about what that means. And I know I did.
Sarah: Oh, yes. Well, I guess we can start with the misconception. So when people hear the word stoic, they think of the modern adjective, stoic, like lowercase stoic. It tends to be like somebody who Maybe like stifles their emotions or is just kind of like a rock in their own person. And, but capital S Stoicism, it it's a philosophy that actually started 2300 years ago in Athens Greece.
Sarah: And it's the complete opposite of lowercase stoicism. Uppercase Stoicism is about managing negative emotions in a healthy way and cultivating positive emotions. So it's completely different. And I actually, I feel like I'm a natural, like uppercase stoic as an Enneagram nine, it's kind of a philosophy about harmony and not sweating the small stuff.
Sarah: And I was in Athens on a trip. Um, I live in Europe. I do a lot of traveling around here and when I started to learn more about The philosophy. I was like, oh yes, this is like how I naturally think anyway. And then as I started to get deeper into the philosophy, which, which it's a very simple philosophy, so we can talk about the core ideas here, but I was like, oh, there, I actually learned a lot like that I could use as an Enneagram nine as well for managing emotions and different things like that. So I just think there's so much that any Enneagram type can take and we can getinto it together.
Steph: Yeah. Okay. That's so fascinating. Um, and I love that you automatically were like, oh wait as a nine This, this works really well for me. What do you think are those like core tenets of it that really speak to you?
Sarah: Well, I think, you know, us nines generally like to go with the flow, that's kind of our ethos and that's a big part of this philosophy, but it also recognizes that that's not easy for A lot of people and even nines. I mean, everyone, like given a certain situation, like we're going to get upset or, or like misinterpret something and like take things to heart and Something else I'll add right now is what I found fascinating about stoicism is that like modern cognitive behavioral therapy has its roots in stoicism. Like they were doing therapy 2300 years ago. That's very similar to what we're doing these days. And sadly, like, we kind of, it got lost through the ages for like a little bit and then started to come back.
Sarah: Um, and it's making like a resurgence now, I think, which I'm very happy about, but Two of like the core principles are, some things are up to us and other things are not, which sounds very basic, but we can explore what that means. And then the other one is it's not things that upset us, but what we make them mean. so the first one that I just mentioned, um, some things are up to us and other things are not means, Some things are in our control and some things are not, but most things are not in our control, but most human suffering, And this is where like Buddhism and stoicism kind of relate a little bit. We think that we have more control over things than we do.
Sarah: And we get twist up and knots and like really angry and resentful about the things that we don't control in Enneagram ones. like, I think you above all can relate to this. And stoicism would say, let's get really clear on what actually is in your control. Let's be mindful of this. And when we recognize what's not in our control, We have to let it go.
Sarah: And that doesn't mean we give up on life, like accepting is accepting reality for what it is, and then like being calm about it and approaching what you wanna do next from a calm frame of mind, because when people react out of anger, they seldom make wise choices, cuz our focus just narrows so much. So what the Stoics are saying is like, be clear what's in your control and then you can take the next step and they were all about taking action to improve society.
Sarah: I think, you know, Stoics today would definitely be involved in social justice. The ancient Stoics were involved in politics. They were poets. They were very much involved in society, but they did it from a frame of. This is what I control So this is what I'm gonna do, cuz this is actually an action that I can take.
Steph: Yeah, that is really cool. And I, I do see the overlap there with type ones, but all of us really, you know, we all have such a hard time. I think detaching from those things, and getting really confused about what is, and isn't in our control. That is like the hardest part, right?
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, well, so would say the only things that are in are control are, are opinions about things like our thoughts, our feelings, and the actions that we decide to take. I can't control what you think about me. I can't control like the weather. Obviously. I can't even control my own body because if I got sick tomorrow, if I got hit by a car tomorrow, that's out of my control, but I can control How I decide to show up in life, how I treat other people. Um, and like one of the biggest things is to live a life of excellent character. So just being mindful of like, they have four Cardinal virtues, justice, wisdom, courage, and moderation. And when we say justice, it's not just justice As we know it today, justice also means kindness. So getting justice for people is also like being kind to others and like fighting for justice, fighting out of love rather than anger.
Steph: Yeah. Yeah. That's so fascinating that you were able to kind of find this and connect with it. And I'm curious how things have changed for you since you started kind of applying this in your daily life.
Sarah: I find that the Stoicism and the Enneagram have certain overlaps. And I think what, that's why I'm so fascinated by both, cuz they're both very much into observation, like self observation and self awareness. And I think. You know, a lot of nines are not aware of their anger and think they're the most laid back people in the world.
Sarah: And I think we often are, but I would have to say that since I've been practicing stoicism where it's all about like taking a pause before reacting and like being mindful of how you're feeling in the moment, um, I can recognize when I'm angry, now and
Steph: yeah.
Sarah: So, yeah, so it's not, definitely not just Enneagram ones, as you mentioned, and like, I'll give an example. Um, uh, the other day I was in the airport in Amsterdam and I felt like I was in this Nightmare where you're walking down a hall and you can't escape because , I was trying to get out and I'm following the exit signs. And then all of a sudden they disappear and I turn around and the signs are going the other way.
Sarah: And then I kept like zigzag and I'm like, how did I get outta this airport? And I felt this like, Rage swell up inside of me, which is not like a feeling that I'm used to, but I was like, whoa, I feel like electric. This is how some people feel all the time. Like it was such a strange energy to me. And I was mindful.
Sarah: Like I am irrationally angry right now. like, I just observing myself. Like, I should not be this mad over this, this thing, but the Stoics would say don’t Fight It. just like observe what's going on. Um, so I'm like, all right, I know that this feeling is going to pass. And then I started to think about like, well, when else have I felt this energy in like a positive way?
Sarah: Like, how can I transform this energy? And I was just thinking of a time when I had like a really great run and was had that forward momentum. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna use this energy to get out of here. And like just started to channel it into excitement for my trip, cuz I had just arrived in, um, the Netherlands.
Sarah: Um, so that's just like One example of Stoic mindfulness is all right. I don't wanna feel this feeling. I'm not gonna shove it away. I'm just gonna be, be with it. And then I know I'm gonna move past it.
Steph: Wow. Yeah. That's such a great example of how you were able to like, take that energy and channel it. And I do think. I mean, I definitely feel that rage feeling, not infrequently. Um, and so I love that you're able to address, identify it and say like, oh wow, as a nine, this isn't something I normally identify And how can I channel it well?, so that's really cool. Um, I'm really curious. About your relationship with the Enneagram as well? Cause I know that you've done a lot of Enneagram study and I'm curious how you first found the Enneagram . How did you discover it? What drew you to it?
Sarah: I think I first found the Enneagram through. So I have a background in Podcasting. You know, my background is in creative writing communication strategy. And at one point, you know, I've been podcasting for a number of years. I have my own podcast called Live without Borders, and I was running a course to help people launch their podcasts.
Sarah: And one of the students in my course who I adored. Was all about like Myers Briggs and the Enneagram. And she started telling me about the narrative Enneagram and because of COVID, they were offering a lot of their programs online that normally you had to be in person for, which I probably wouldn't have been able to access cuz I live in England. And uh, so it, I just started taking all the workshop. Uh, yeah. So that's how I got into it
Steph: Oh, wow. So it was like somewhat recent.
Sarah: Over the last two years
Steph: Okay. Yeah, How did you find your type? Was that instantaneous or did it take you a while?
Sarah: I immediately felt seen like, this is absolutely me. 100%. I felt like very, very solid until I heard Uh, on a panel of type five, um, describing her experience and it was like a lot of things that I thought related to nine as well. So I had like a mini crisis for a little bit and actually went to his spiritual director and who studied the Enneagram.
Sarah: And I was, I was like crying and telling him, like, I can't, like, I don't know. I thought I was so confident in my nine and he, toward the end, he was like, do you want me to tell you what I think you are cause I, you know, in Enneagram world, People often give you like choices and it's supposed to be you, but I'm like, yes, tell me, he was like, I'm seeing a lot of nine here.
Sarah: And I was like, all right. Um, but yeah, aside from that little blip, very confident in my nine-ness for sure.
Steph: Yeah. What do you think it was about the five that felt like you resonated with that as well? Do you think that's because of your subtype or do you think that there's something else there?
Sarah: Probably subtype had something to do with it. Um, I'm dominant and self press. I love a lot of alone time. Um, I comfort is like a big thing for me that has guided a lot of things in my life. Uh, yeah, I think, but then I realized like, after, like that's a common thing for nines as well, like wanting to be alone, cuz it's a peaceful place to be often.
Sarah: And um, you know, I love doing research as well. You know, that's, my favorite thing to do is to like read and, um, absorb and um, all that type of stuff. But I mean, I think those are like the biggest things. I think it's easier to confuse nine and five than what people think. And also as a nine, like one of the biggest things you always hear is nines don't know what they want in life.
Sarah: Like they have no preferences. But I do. I know what I want in life. We might not always say it. I think that's also a lot of times when we're younger, I think as we start to get older and especially when you learn more about yourself, um, it's becomes easier to say what you want.
Steph: yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. And I do think a lot of nine. You know, especially if, if you end up, you know, with like a specific person, always by your side, then it is harder to know what you want because you're merging with that person. But I'm really curious to hear more about your experience of, you know, wanting that sense of like comfort.
Steph: A lot of nines really wanna keep the status quo. They want things to kind of stay the same. For you, you've done a lot of things that I think a lot of people would see as uncomfortable. Like you were like, oh, I'm just gonna move to England. Like, um, so tell me about that whole process and how maybe your type plays out in that.
Steph: Or maybe not.
Sarah: I think. Um, a lot of people would assume I was like a seven because I do go on a lot of adventures and I like to have fun and stuff like that. Uh, but I was thinking about that once. Like what, what's easy for me and like, what is harder for me. And I think when it's things that I can do on my Own or things that I really want to do and I can make it happen.
Sarah: Like when I moved abroad on my own and I've been going— look, I first lived abroad when I was 18. I spent the summer working at a hotel in England and just got a taste for it. And, um, Sorry, I'm going to turn off my emails. I didn't realize and I hope that sound didn't bother things. Uh, when I was 18, I worked at a hotel in England and I thought, this is the life.
Sarah: Like I really wanna do this. And I studied abroad a little bit. And then I, as an adult, couldn't figure out a way to Live in Europe because the visa situation just seemed too hard. And then at one point, when I was living in New York city, I was like, oh, I think I'm eligible to get Italian citizenship through my Sicilian ancestry.
Sarah: And so I started to do the research for this and gathered all the paperwork. And I met this translator who was translating some of my documents and she was like, you know what, if you moved to Italy I think it would be much faster because it could take years in to get this in America, especially in New York city.
Sarah: So I would just move to Italy and she told me this town to go to Regio Amelia in Italy. And I just, based on this advice of the stranger, I was like, all right, I'm packing up my life in New York city. And I bought a one way ticket to Italy and I got my passport in like two months and have been living in Europe ever since. So,
Steph: Wow.
Sarah: but that was like, I'm just thinking about, like, for me, it didn't involve like putting myself out there. It was like something that I wanted to do that I could do. And it wasn't like a big scene or anything like that. But when I think of the things that are harder for me, it has involved being like center stage. Or even like a little bit on stage where, uh, yeah, being the center of attention has never been like my favorite. So that has always been like stretch goal type of things.
Steph: Yeah. Well, it's also really interesting that you say that because you do have a podcast and, um, or a couple podcasts. And what is that like? Like how does that differ from being center stage in the way that you don't like?
Sarah: well, I think it started out. Uncomfortable . But one thing that I do wanna do is challenge myself. And that is going back to Stoicism. A big thing that the stoic say is that you need to put yourself into uncomfortable situations like Seneca, which is one of like the main Stoic philosophers said, he felt sorry for anyone who didn't experience challenge in their life, because they would never know what they had in them.
Sarah: They would never live a life where they could see, you know, I could do, I, I could do this. Right. So they say you should voluntarily like experience discomfort, and they will do things and like modern Stoics too, like do cold showers or like swim in the ocean. And I think that's fun too, but I think even better challenges are how can you put yourself out there in a way that's also helpful to other people. And so doing my podcasts is a way for me to share Information that I think will be useful to other people and inspirational to other people. So Live without Borders started out as like a travel expat podcast where I interviewed women like myself who packed up everything. And it was like a travel tip show pretty much.
Sarah: And just giving people advice on like how you can make the move and how you can like live a remote life. And it's still part that, and I still love that about it, but I've expanded it to be like more about wellbeing and living without like mindset Borders. And, um, so I talk a lot more about Stoicism, but yeah, when I first started podcasting, it felt so embarrassing to me to ask, like, to ask people like to ask strangers, if I could interview them on my podcast, like didn't even exist yet.
Sarah: It just felt mortifying. And I remember Being on the beach. And like I was with my family as I was starting this podcast and I was about to press send on this invite on my phone and I'm just like staring at my phone. And it was so hard for me to send that request cuz I was, I had like, yeah, all these mindset things like who am I to be asking this person to like, come on my show and, but the more I started doing these things, the more comfortable I got and like responses were great. Like, yeah, that sounds great. I would be happy to do that. And I was like, whoa. Wow. so,
Steph: Yeah, it's definitely. An interesting thing, because a lot of the time, and I've heard this from so many different people, people who like had huge guests on their podcast and it's like, how did you get them? It's like I asked, I just asked. Um, and I do think in my life too, like some of those big, exciting moments have come because it's like, well, I just asked, um, wow, like what an incredible Outcome from literally having the courage in that one millisecond. Right? Because all you needed was the millisecond of courage to press send. Otherwise, like it's done. Like if you chickened out after, I mean, too bad, the email is sent. So, um, that, you know, finding that one millisecond of courage is so important and sometimes very difficult.
Sarah: It is difficult, but the more you do it, the easier it gets. And then this goes back to like one of the other core principles of Stoicism. It's not like things that It's not the things that happen. It's like what you make them mean? We like twist things up in our heads about like, we have no idea what's going on in somebody else's mind through a stranger, through our friends, through like partners.
Sarah: We really don't know. Um, and that's like through relationships, but then also a lot of people Fear the worst or, you know, type sixes I'm talking to you might be like planning for like the worst thing that could happen today. Actually, the Stoics would say it is good to like, keep in mind, like negative things that could happen, but they would say, but
Sarah: Don't hang onto that. Don't like, get you emotionally invested in that, like, okay, this might happen today. How can I plan around that? And then, and then let that go. So it's good to have, be proactive and have plans, but not to be sort of irrationally searching for everything that could go wrong.
Steph: Yeah. That's that can be difficult. And I think even for me, I'm not a six, but sometimes it's difficult for me too. Um, how do you. Use the Enneagram in your day to day life, do you think?
Sarah: My day to day to day life, I would say I try to be mindful of How comfort dictates my actions or inactions, I should say is probably a big thing. You know, letting fear creep up. Um, I think this is a common thing for people and for me as well, where it's like a procrastination thing of like, I should be doing this, or I think I should be doing this, butI will get to that later. first. I need to go watch this course about it, and then, you know, maybe another course about it and I'm just gonna like research. And then that's another like nine/ five thing, I think, where, um, not feeling ready. Like I need to, I need to keep like, learning about this before I do anything with this information.
Steph: Yeah. The not feeling ready. And I think also for nines, there's another layer of, um, well, other people are already doing something similar, so where's my space to carve out.
Sarah: Mm. Yeah.
Steph: I see that come up a lot. Um, and I also think that, you know, of course it's not necessarily only nines and fives who do this, but so many of us, especially, you know, if you are, you know, running your own business, doing that sort of thing, when you wanna work on something new.
Steph: A lot of us do that thing where we're like, okay, I'm going to go and learn about this. And like, it feels productive, but you're not actually making any progress cuz you're not trying it. I was just talking with, um, some people yesterday about the Enneagram and entrepreneurship and we kind of talked about like that tendency to think, you know, Okay, I'm gonna learn how to make croissants.
Steph: And then you spend the next four months watching videos and reading about how to make croissants, but you've never gone into the kitchen and like tried it and experimented and like gotten your hands dirty and, and like put all that theory into practice and how after you watch, you know, four months worth of information on it, you are no closer to knowing how to make the croissants. If you have never actually tried doing.
Sarah: Yeah, that's such an important point. I've definitely been there and it's an easy place to slide back to, uh, and going back to like how I use the Enneagram. So I've done coaching sessions with you. And one of the things that we talked about was, uh, what would a three do? Like nine's going to three in security and that is something that I think about.
Sarah: Like if I feel a bit stuck or like going into withdrawal, withdrawn stance, what would a three do in this stitch situation? Because that's something that I
Sarah: very much admire in the assertive stance is. Let's make it happen. What do we need to make it happen? Like that's not a mindset that I used to have. I used to be kind of definitely like in the withdrawal, like, oh, people didn't like this in the first 30 seconds that I sent this email.
Sarah: Well, I guess this was a bad idea and nevermind everyone, like, pretend this didn't happen. Just kidding. Nobody look around here. Uh, whereas the, um, three energy is like All right This didn't work. What else can work? Which is another, like quite a stoic thing, actually, like they would say, what do you wanna be focusing on?
Sarah: Like, don't have your attention be like all over the place. Like, what are your values? What's important to you? Drill down in like one thing and focus on it and then make it happen. And the Stoics would say you don't control the outcome of what happens. Like you can have a goal, but all you can control is the process.
Sarah: So do you the best, like you can aim the arrow, you can't like many things can happen. So the arrow doesn't go into the bullseye, but you can do your best at like going for it. So That's what I try to do more in my life.
Steph: Yeah, that's such a good lesson too though. Cuz like I think even as a three and I do tend to have that mindset of like, okay, well that didn't work. What else can I do? But sometimes I do get in my head about it or I get really attached to the outcome of being like, well this is a failure. If it didn't work instead of There's that constant encouragement to see things in business as an experiment. So if you know, you have a really good thing that you're putting out there that you're offering to people and it's not selling the way that you want it to experiment, see what else might work. Um, but it's really hard to do that.
Steph: And, and to do the experiment, it's so much easier to just get attached to the outcome
Sarah: Yeah,
Steph: and kind of get in your head about that.
Sarah: I agree. A hundred percent. And I think that's why we need to redefine goals and have like two different kind of goals. So you've got the outcome goal. Like this would be great if I hit it, but the more important thing is the process goal. Like, how am I showing up? Like, what are the actual, like, tasks that I'm doing?
Sarah: Um, Because we can control that. We can control how we're showing up every day and like the actions that we're taking, maybe the end result we can't, but we can certainly make a great effort.
Steph: Mm, that's such a good little tidbit, I think for us to all take away because it, it sometimes is really hard. It's really hard out here.
Sarah: Yeah.
Steph: um, so. What are you really passionate about in your work and how does that connect to what you're doing? What you're offering to people, all those sorts of things.
Sarah: Well, what am I passionate about? I could talk about stoicism all day and wellbeing. I'm passionate about having like the freedom to travel and live abroad. And I think of everything that I've learned over the years, um, it's that we do not Have that much time left here on this earth. Uh, something that the stoic always say is memento mori. “Remember you must die”, which sounds quite morbid, but I think it's a really like a rallying cry for life. And that's how they meant it as well. They were so mindful of we're gonna be gone soon. Like, do you really wanna be hanging onto this anger? Do you really like, not want to accept this call from like your loved one, cuz you're too busy.
Sarah: They're very much present focus, which I think is related to the Enneagram as well. Like how can we get present and stay present in our lives? And something that I always think about is when I first moved to England, like full time, like my forever move in 2011, my godparents were supposed to come and Visit me. And then they were gonna do this European trip. They had both just retired and freakishly, They both got different illnesses at the same time, like so separate sicknesses, but they were not able to travel and they never traveled again. And it, that was like heartbreaking to me, but I know that's something that happens to people all the time where they'll think, okay, someday, I'm gonna get here a lot of, so a lot of people say like in my retirement, I'm gonna do X, Y, Z, I think like
Sarah: Generations are like starting to shift that a little bit. At least conceptually they'll think, well, I'm gonna do that before I retire. But so many people don't, I mean, most people, at least in the states don't even take like most of their vacation days. We're like always saying like, yeah, someday I'm gonna get to that. someday
Sarah: I'm gonna get to that. Um, so that's something that I really like to champion to people is to make every moment matter and just like a cool little story about Memento Mori. So an ancient Rome, like the emperors and like the like higher ups would ride around in these chariots and they would have somebody stand behind them, whispering into their ear
Memento Mori like, remember you will die. So even the emperor. Was in this mindset of like, this is all fleeting. This isn't gonna be here forever. Like be here now.
Steph: Wow. So having that perspective. I think that's such a gift. And I think that it's so hard to keep in mind, you know, especially when you're young and you're like, I mean, I have all this time. Right. Um, or, or that sense of like, this is what I'm supposed to do. This is how I have to do it. I have to go to school and then get a good job and then buy a house and then have kids and all these different things and having this Perspective of actually saying, well, what do I actually want? You know? Um, and I think for you, you're a great example because of course you are one of the types that people think, you know, you're not gonna know what you want, but it's clearly something that you have focused on a lot. And I have gone out and done all the things, maybe not all the things yet, but, um, a lot of the things that you really want in.
Sarah: Yeah, there's still like a lot that I want to do for sure. But just to go back to what you just said about some people, um, forgetting about this, or like having fleeting thoughts of like, yeah, I wanna do this. Like, I think that's true for most of us, right. For like our values and our like hopes and dreams. We can write them down at the beginning of the year, but then if we don't go back to them, it's easy to forget about them. So like, we shouldn't try to be these super humans who always, this has this stuff front of mind, cuz we're going to forget, but that's why it's like great to like write these reminders and have them like physical.
Sarah: Out there or have like a journaling practice where every day we're going back to, this is what I value in life. Or like this was the goal that I set for myself for this year. I think we need to have like real life, uh, reminders. There's actually a clock that I want to buy, this freak some people out, but there's this guy.
Sarah: I think he's in the Netherlands who built this clock that tells you. How much time you have left on this earth based on like the average human, uh, life expectancies. And I was telling a friend of this and she was like, why would you want that? That sounds so scary. And I was like, yeah, but maybe we need to be scared into that.
Sarah: Maybe we do need that reminder of, I have like X days left. How do I wanna show up today? Who do I want to be kind to, you know, it just, I think that can help us, like let go of things that we're hanging onto, cuz we're like, all right, I have one ear left or like a thousand days left. How am I gonna spend it? I think for me, that shifts my mindset in a positive way.
Steph: Yeah. absolutely. I think, um, have you read that book? Uh, 4,000 weeks time management for mortals?
Sarah: I haven't read it yet, but I remember you recommend it. So it's on the list.
Steph: Yeah. So the only reason I bring it up is because it, 4,000 weeks is like the average amount of weeks. Like the lifespan that we have, you know, um, average of course nobody's guaranteed anything. And so it just like, kind of puts it in perspective because when you think about how many weeks are in your life, 4,000 actually, when you think about it, it's like, actually that's not that many.
Sarah: no it's not . And as you get older, it goes faster and faster. But I think like, of course, when some people get. News about terminal illness and things like that would, could take it in like a negative way. Cuz it's obviously like a shocking upsetting thing, but you hear so many stories of people like Steve jobs is an example who get like notice they've got so much time left and a lot of that people are like, this is a gift because now I'm really gonna start living.
Steph: Mm-hmm .Yeah, so really taking that philosophy and applying it now, because realistically we do have limited time.
Sarah: Yeah. And I think people who have no idea of Stoicism, like a lot of them just when that reality becomes, like, you can really feel it and embody it. You get that news. You're like, wow, I'm not wasting any more time. People start going back and like making amends and connecting with people that they wanted to connect with people But, you know, things got away asking for forgiveness, living in a way that I think they probably always wanted to live, but again, it's like, someday I'll get to that someday. I'll make these repairs. Uh, so yeah, I'm always inspired by those stories.
Steph: yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that that's like so fascinating and I hope you get that clock
Sarah: I'm gonna order it tonight.
Steph: yes. Um, well, what are you working on now? What do you have that people can kind of, um, engage with so that they can learn more from you or hear from you?
Sarah: Well, you can always hear me on the Live without Borders podcast. And I write about stoicism and travel on my website sarahmikutel.com. I just did a fundraiser for Ukraine called Calm the Chaos, where I take people through audio lessons on, um, just how to manage life in these times that feel chaotic. So how to reduce stress and anxiety using stoic practices.
Sarah: And, uh, I talk about the Enneagram virtues as well. Um, and I would really like for the next step to be, to turn that into a group program. And go through that material with people in a live setting that really excites me.
Steph: That does sound so exciting. Okay. So I'm gonna make sure to link all of those things in the show notes so that everyone can check everything out. Um, and I have a couple final questions for you that I like to ask everyone. And I get really excited about these. Um, so the first one is, tell me about a book that has helped you re refresh you or shaped you in the last year.
Sarah: Oh, does it have to be the last year?
Steph: I mean, I'm not gonna know if it's not.
Sarah: All right, I'm gonna give two books. One, I think, I think may have been in the last year. Um, How to think like a Roman Emperor. It's my favorite modern book on Stoicism. It's by Donald Robertson. Uh, he's Such a great author. And he's also a psychotherapist and like has been writing about Stoicism for years and years and years.
Sarah: So he tells the story of the emperor, Marcus Aurelius, who was also a Stoic, um, tells his story, but then also weaves in, uh, stoic practices for mindfulness and, you know, reducing anxiety. And then also, um, Like more modern practices, like related to cognitive behavioral therapy and stuff. So I think that's a fascinating read and the audio book is even better.
Sarah: Cause he has a really nice Scottish accent. And uh, the, one of the books that like really changed my life was Mindset by Carol Dweck. I'm sure somebody else will mention this on your podcast as well, but The whole idea of like fixed mindset, growth mindset changed my like the way I lived my life in like two minutes, like I overread one page and was like, oh wow, I've been so close minded.
Sarah: And the way that I've been thinking about what I'm capable of. So like fixed mindset, just That's what most people have, where we just assume the abilities that we have now are fixed and we don't grow that's it. And a growth mindset is, yeah, of course you can like learn and grow. Like I used to have the mindset of, if I've never done something, like just assumed I would be totally bad at it. And when I read this, I was like, oh yeah, well of course I would be bad at cause I've never done it before. but,
Steph: Mm-hmm
Sarah: um, Her word is “yet” like, yeah. I'm not great at that yet. So it's just so many things. I, it just opened like so many doors for me, cuz I was like, yeah, maybe I do suck at this, but I've never done it before. So I'm gonna give it a try. It's made me more open to trying.
Steph: Yeah. And I think what I love about that too, is being bad at something is not like a permanent state. It's something that can be changed. And having that, obviously that's the whole point of having a growth mindset.
Sarah: Yeah. So, yeah, I love that book.
Steph: Okay. I'm definitely going to— that, that one's been in my cart for a while and I have not, you know, I've read some other things about the book and like her, she has a Ted talk and things like that, but haven't actually picked it up yet. So that might be a next read on my list. Okay. Final question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?
Sarah: Hmm, a piece of advice that has really stuck with me. Well, gosh Steph, there's so much, um, does it have to be a pithy quote or can it be something longer?
Steph: it can be longer.
Sarah: I guess, going back to Stoicism and the Enneagram and self-compassion, um, realizing that we don't know what's going on with somebody else. And something that the Stoics would say is people aren't doing. And I think this goes back to Socrates, “people aren't doing evil, like on purpose, they just don't know any better.”
Sarah: And I think that is something that's really helpful in these days in the political climate. I mean, there's so much, so much happening, especially in the states where life is so polar polarized and their tensions are so high. And if you can approach a conversation with somebody assuming. Not assuming anything, you know, cuz I think often we go into conversations with people and we're like this person's a jerk.
Sarah: This person is like trying to make me mad. Or, and if we can go in with more curiosity and trying to understand their point of view and realize like, in their mind. They think that they're right. They're thinking they're actually being helpful and trying to do the right thing. If you can like take that point of view from them, then you can go in and ask more questions.
Sarah: Like, oh, like, well, why do you think this this way? Or like, what do you think would happen if X, Y, Z? And I think just approaching things with more of a curiosity mindset rather than pointing fingers and being like you are a total jerk and shutting people down because like, what's our objective here. I think like there's so many people who have good hearts who wanna change the world for the better, but they're doing it by trying to shout other people down and you don't win people over cheer side by telling them their fools.
Steph: Yeah, I think that's such a great perspective and, and such a great reminder. It reminds me of, um, the book. Think again by Adam Grant, have you read that?
Sarah: I have read that. And the whole time I was reading that, I was like, I feel like he should be referencing Stoicism in this book because so much of it goes back to the Stoics.
Steph: Yeah. I was just having that same curiosity and having that, um, being willing to like ask questions and think about it and like talk about it. Not in a shouting down way, but just in discussion. And we do all, I think. I don't think most people are like, I wanna make everything suck for everyone. I think everyone has like this perspective of like, I wanna make the world better.
Steph: And this is the specific way that I think that it can happen. And when we all have those different perspectives, of course, even as I'm saying this, I'm like, but that way is wrong. um, but, but still, you know, I think that that's such a great perspective to, to kind of shift that a little bit and, and bring more curiosity into the conversation.
Sarah: Well, it certainly takes the heat off of things. And it's like for you to helps you take things less personally, which I think, uh, is something that causes a lot of like angst.
Steph: Definitely. Uh, we all just need to, uh, maybe Take a lesson in Stoicism, maybe we all need to take your audio course and, uh, learn how to Calm the chaos because things are quite chaotic. Um, huh. Yeah. So I'm gonna definitely link that. I hope that a lot of people sign up, join you for that. Um, and. I think it'll be really, really helpful.
Steph: So thank you so much for joining me for the podcast today, Sarah, I have really enjoyed this conversation and thank you for sharing all of your wisdom on stoicism. I think that's gonna be really useful for a lot of our listeners.
Sarah: Well, thank you so much. Step. This has been great talking to you
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one. If you want to stay connected, Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you.
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The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Dr Dream Chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on Spotify.
