Carving Your Own Path as an Enneagram 3 with Kimberly Reese, LCSW
Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, the weekly podcast where we go beyond Enneagram theory and dive into practical understanding, new clarity, and fresh insight. We’re talking about how each type is in REAL LIFE so you can remember – you’re more than just a number.
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Kimberly Reese, a licensed therapist, expert on Black Agency, and a Certified Enneagram Coach based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. With over a decade of specialized experience in treating trauma in the BIPOC community. She is originally from South Florida but was raised in Durham, North Carolina where she obtained her Bachelor of Social Work from Meredith College and completed her Master of Social Work at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. She is committed to shifting the culture of mental health services by promoting quality therapeutic services to her clients in North Carolina.
Kimberly has been in practice for 13 years, working in community-based agencies, health, and non-profit sectors. Growing and developing her group practice, The Reese Collective, has been her focus for the past 5 years as of May 2022. Leading a private practice has afforded her the opportunity to expand her work to include community engagement opportunities; specifically pertaining to the intersection of Mental Health and The Black Church, Self-Care for POC in Corporate Spaces, and increasing access to Trauma-Informed treatment models of people of Color.
We talk about what it’s like to be an Enneagram Three, emotionality and being in the heart center, the Type Three approach to losing, failure, and achievement, and learning to do things we’re bad at.
Follow Kimberly on Instagram:
Looking for our key takeaways? Jump to them here:
Kim’s first reaction to learning her type [8:12]
Why Kim became a therapist [17:47]
Kim’s thoughts on being emotional and a Three [27:01]
Connect with Kim and her work [44:40]
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Your Enneagram Coach Certification Program *affiliate link [07:05]
Essential Enneagram: The Definitive Personality Test and Self-Discovery Guide by David N. Daniels and Virginia A. Price [00:09:17]
The Enneagram for Black Liberation: Return to Who You Are Beneath the Armor You Carry by Chichi Agorom [00:11:03]
This Week’s Guest Picks:
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Enneagram Resources for you!
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Learn more about subtypes! Download my free subtypes guide here.
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Listen to the Episode
Read the Full, Unabridged Transcript
[00:00:00] Steph Barron Hall: Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron Hall, creator of Nine Types Co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in Love, and accredited Enneagram professional.
[00:00:28] Steph Barron Hall: Before we get into today's episode. I want to talk to you about subtypes. Now Subtypes have been transformational in my own Enneagram journey, and they've also been so incredibly helpful for my clients and my course students, and even some of the teams that I've worked with.
[00:00:43] Steph Barron Hall: So with that said, I want you to head over to the show notes or go to ninetypes.co/subtypes. And download my free subtype guide. You'll get a breakdown of what the whole word means, the entire concept, All 27 subtypes. And you will unlock this new understanding of yourself and the people around you, and you'll have a new way to apply the Enneagram in your daily life. So again, head to ninetypes.co/subtypes, or check out that link in the show notes to learn more. Enjoy.
[00:01:19] Steph Barron Hall: Well, welcome to the podcast, Kimberly. Wait, I forgot to ask you. Do you go by Kim or Kimberly?
[00:01:25] Kim Reese: I go by either, but we can do, we can do Kim cuz I'm gonna do ‘Steph’ and that just feels better.
[00:01:30] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Great. Well, welcome Kim. Welcome to the podcast. So excited to have you on Enneagram IRL. And, it's been really fun to listen to your podcast. Enneagram for the Culture. And I've really been loving that. Of course by now, you know, we know that I had your podcast co-host on the podcast already. And so we were able to record And I will tell you what I told her, which is that I want everyone to go listen to all my guests, like their podcasts and everything. And so I'm like, don't even listen to my podcast. Go listen to theirs. But no, One thing I love about your podcast episodes, is how you have been going through, in season one, just going through the types and really getting below the stereotypes and that kind of stuff.
[00:02:19] Steph Barron Hall: Um, so it's been really awesome. And I'm curious to hear from your perspective, how that has gone for you.
[00:02:26] Kim Reese: Yeah. I appreciate that. And it's mostly been,honestly, it's mostly been really, really, really exciting and really, really, really, fulfilling. So you mentioned Camille and y'all have heard from Camille. And so Camille, I feel like always sets the bar high cuz she's just a joy, high energy, just wonderful, wonderful, wonderful coworker,
[00:02:56] Kim Reese: Co-host and we're friends. We're really good friends. We started off as friends. So, um, you know, she introduced me to the Enneagram. We talk about this on the podcast. When we share about our origin stories. And when she brought it to me, you know, we can get into that. I know that's a, you know, that's one of the questions you were gonna ask me anyway.
[00:03:18] Kim Reese: But essentially we got to the point where I was like, Camille, we have such great conversations about the Enneagram. We have such great conversations about, um, what's missing, um, and conversations about the Enneagram. Just like when we just talk as friends, we need to like put this out in the world. Like people could potentially learn from this. Um, we know what we're talking about. We're both therapists. We're both very, very, very, um, well informed in the Enneagram. And so initially she was resistant and she didn't think that, you know, something that we could do. So to go from that, um, obviously eventually she got on board. To it being out there and being everything I saw that it could be and potentially more, it's been, it's just, it's been so, so, so fulfilling.
[00:04:11] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that's really cool. And I am curious to hear more about your process, like learning the Enneagram and like, how did you get into it? Like, was Camille just like, “Hey, check this out”, or what was that conversation?
[00:04:23] Kim Reese: Yep. Pretty much. Exactly. So she, um, in one of our tops, I said we would just, you know, uh, she and I started working together. Doing community-based mental health, um, in Raleigh. And those were fun times that were really hard work. Um, and we were, um, we just connected and we've stayed connected over the years.
[00:04:47] Kim Reese: And so. One of those connections is through our work as clinicians. And so, um, you know, we would just talk about tools that we're using, um, trainings that we were going to, and one day she said, “Hey, you should take, check out the Enneagram. Um, it's something that you'll probably like to use with your clients and maybe you'll be into it too.”
[00:05:08] Kim Reese: And I said, “okay.” so I checked it out and she sent me a test to take, um, which was just a paragraph test. And I read the description of all the types and so landed on my type and was like, “No”. [Laughs] um, No, and never looked, didn't look at it again for a year. Um, didn't even, didn't follow up with her about it.
[00:05:38] Kim Reese: just, just was just like, Nope. So a year later, um, after, you know, doing some more work personally and getting to a place to where I wanted to be intentional about doing some more work personally, um, and professionally. I circled back around to it and, um, took the test again, uh, landed on the same type.
[00:06:05] Kim Reese: And I was like, okay. Um, and just tried to be more open, and pay more attention. And I was like, wow.
[00:06:13] Steph Barron Hall: Hmm.
[00:06:13] Kim Reese: So, um, that was my experience personally. Um, and then I did, I started to integrate it into the work that I was doing with clients as a clinician. And so as a therapist, most of my clients are, um, black and they're black women.
[00:06:30] Kim Reese: And, um, I have a few clients who are white, but most of my black clients knew nothing about this tool. My white clients pretty much always did. Um, and so that was just, um, you know, introduction to this whole dynamic of there not being much representation for people of color when it comes to this system and being able to have access to it in a way that resonates with us, that includes our experiences and our narratives.
[00:07:05] Kim Reese: So, it was cool to get to use it with clients really, really cool. Really, really cool. Um, and so with that, I was just inspired to want to get certified in it. So, um, and I think that was kind of at the onset of COVID. And so I went through Your Enneagram Coach to get that certification. And that was mostly because I wanted to be able to say I had a certification.
[00:07:30] Kim Reese: I felt like, you know, this is something I'm gonna be using on an ongoing basis. so I knew that there was this commitment to learning from it for, you know, forever at this point. but the certification I really wanted to solidify that, you know, this is something that I'm very serious about, from a professional standpoint. And that was also I started Melanated Enneagram.
[00:07:56] Steph Barron Hall: Cool. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. That point about the certification thing I think is so fascinating. I feel like that is such a Three thing. And you can tell me what you think from your perspective. Um, but I remember early on in my Enneagram process, I wanted, I was like, I need a certification and people did ask, and I know Eights who are like, I don't have one and it doesn't really matter.
[00:08:19] Steph Barron Hall: But as a three, I was like, Oh, yep, I'm gonna go get my certification. And I also did Y.E.C. initially, because it was the only one online at the time. And now, you know, this is very Three as well. I'm in my third certification program. Because of the pandemic, so many of those opportunities have moved virtual, which has been really, really cool.
[00:08:46] Kim Reese: mm-hmm 100% agree. Um, yeah, that's kind of why I threw it in there, because I totally recognize that that is what that was. Largely for me was that I needed and wanted something that said, I know what I'm talking about, even though with this, like you're always learning from it. Right. So, but yes, I definitely think that's a Three thing and have also been looking at some additional, certifications as well. So thanks for, thanks for that.
[00:09:17] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. yeah. yeah, and I've, I've really loved the ones that are more about the inner work processes. And that's been really groundbreaking for me and also I wanted to ask you, because that initial reaction to the test you took, you did the paragraph one. so is that the David Daniels one?
[00:09:38] Kim Reese: Yeah. The yellow book, right?
[00:09:41] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm Um, oh, for those listening, I will link the book it's called, The Essential Enneagram.
[00:09:49] Kim Reese: Yes. That sounds right.
[00:09:51] Steph Barron Hall: I'm pulling it off my bookshelf as we speak. Yep. The essential Enneagram. And it's like a little yellow booklet and it's actually one that, I really like.Iit doesn't go into subtypes, but I, I do really like it overall.
[00:10:04] Steph Barron Hall: Um, okay. That caveat aside, what was that moment where you were like, “Nope, I'm put this down.” What was that?
[00:10:14] Kim Reese: Um, it mostly what I remember, it was the Deceit part. so reading that I was like, “No, like I, I deceit. Like I cannot stand like it. there's just no way that there's somehow, like, this is an issue for me.” Um, that's what I recall, really being very hard for me to grapple Um, but when I was able to come back around and be more open, I was able to understand how that shows up and that it doesn't mean that as a Three, we have a tendency to walk around intentionally lying to people, um, that because of our preoccupation with image, when we’re—
[00:11:03] Kim Reese: what I love Chichi’s language, when we're armored up. Right? Um, is that we can tend to not be real with ourselves. Um, and that is not something that we're doing intentionally like it's totally, um, we're totally, we can be totally blind to it. So. after I was able to understand that it was actually quite a relief and it's been really helpful, um, and essential to my growth since, but initially I remember it being that. I also didn't really resonate with this notion of being a performer at all.
[00:11:39] Kim Reese: I didn't like that. And I didn't, I wasn't, I didn't feel that, and, and so the rest of these things are true, uh, for sure true. Like, I didn't like the idea of being a workaholic. I didn't like the idea of struggling with Image. Definitely didn't like that. I didn't like the idea of being seen as somebody who, um, needed to accomplish, but it's, it can all be very, very true.
[00:12:11] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Well, and I think for me, what has been so helpful is seeing the passion as really self-deceit of like that belief, like what you're describing. Like, I am what I do, or I am the image that I present to others. And when we deceive ourselves in that way, then it's like, “oh, I can totally see how this is running the show.”
[00:12:35] Kim Reese: Mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. So that was my visceral response to me landing on my type at first.
[00:12:47] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. you think your subtype had anything to do with that?
[00:12:51] Kim Reese: Absolutely. Absolutely. My subtype I'm self-preservation.And so what I've learned about subtypes and specifically, the self-preservation subtype in the context of the three. So it's the countertype.
[00:13:08] Kim Reese: Um, so it makes sense that there were parts that I was reading about that really didn't resonate with me because that's how counter types can work. You know, it can look very counter to whatthe type can appear to be. For example, to be presented as someone who loves the spotlight, I don't feel like that's me at all.
[00:13:28] Kim Reese: I'm very, very uncomfortable in the spotlight. To be someone who really, you know, kind of gets off on getting, praise, et cetera, like you were mentioning, I much rather shine the light on somebody else. Like that's where I really get pumped up. And so there was some stuff I was reading about
[00:13:49] Kim Reese: It just didn't resonate with me, but I learned later that after learning about my subtype, that that was why.
[00:13:57] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's why I love subtypes so much. They can be so clarifying., And when we don't have them in our descriptions. I think that of course, I mean, on Instagram, like we couldn't possibly like for every single post do all three subtypes, you know, when we don't have them, I think that people get mistyped a lot.
[00:14:23] Kim Reese: Oh yeah.
[00:14:26] Steph Barron Hall: I see that so often. And I'm really curious if— Well, I'm curious, like what made you wanna be a therapist
[00:14:38] Kim Reese: Okay.
[00:14:39] Steph Barron Hall: and then how your type kind of shows up in that realm?
[00:14:43] Kim Reese: Oh, okay. I was just realizing I don't have any tissue around. So I, um, what made me wanna be a therapist I've known I wanted to be a therapist since I was like 12. Um, honestly I saw The Sixth Sense. Do you remember that movie?
[00:15:03] Steph Barron Hall: Yes, but I've never seen it
[00:15:04] Kim Reese: Oh, gosh. Okay. It's with Bruce Willis. and he is a psychologist for children and he has this client who see ghosts that's synopsis of the movie.
[00:15:20] Kim Reese: And so I saw this movie and saw what he did and saw what he was for this child who was, I mean, it was a scary movie. It was a very scary situation. And I was just like, I was really inspired by it. Um, I grew up with parents who were very intentional about teaching me about my history, um, teaching me about their experience as black people in this country and potentially what I should be prepared for as a black woman in this country. and so with that lens, I just saw a lot in my community and in my people that led me to feel that I really wanted to help black people heal that. That's what I wanted to do
[00:16:06] Kim Reese: with my life, um, and heal in the sense of emotional healing. I noticed that it was just something that was not talked about in the black community. Um, so when I decided I want to go the social work route and become a therapist and told my parents, um, my dad bless his heart, um, said, well, black people are not gonna come talk to you.
[00:16:26] Kim Reese: Cuz black people don't talk to therapists, black people go to church and they pray it away. And that pretty much was a very good synopsis of, of what my experience was as far as black people's perspective on therapy and why it just, some of the barriers, um, that kept black people from pursuing therapy and pursuing that is an opportunity to heal from things that I felt and learned.
[00:16:56] Kim Reese: We really deserve to heal from, um, given our experience in this country. So, um, so that's how I decided to be a therapist. So I knew at 12 and I, it was just a matter of knowing what route I was gonna go. And I figured that out in undergrad, I thought I was gonna do psychology. I took an intro to psychology course, and it was really cool, but I felt like
[00:17:21] Kim Reese: it missed stuff. Um, for me, and that stuff was very much captured when I took an intro to social work course, and I learned that I could get my license as a social worker and be a therapist. And so, that's what I did. I mentioned community-based mental health. That was my experience for a while.
[00:17:46] Kim Reese: So essentially that's where we, as clinicians are, in the communities, in the client's homes, those services are typically funded by Medicaid. So these are low-income families that are really impacted by a lot of, um, systemic issues. Um, really, really hard. Um, great opportunity for learning because set me up to be able to handle pretty much anything that came my way in private practice, which is what I'm doing now.
[00:18:18] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense to me too, because of the systemic perspective that social work takes versus psychology, which is very individual based. Not like I would— I'm not saying that psychologists or people trained in that can't have that more systemic lens, but social work you're trained for that.
[00:18:41] Kim Reese: Yeah, it's more so just the fundamental, like just the school is more birthed than that than, um, Than psychology in comparison, but, um, we need all of, we need all of us, all of us, um, cuz even still, there's not enough of representation even as clinicians, um, for people of color, so.
[00:19:07] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. Yeah. Well, and I can imagine why like what your dad said about, you know, well, black people are not gonna come to you. I wonder if there's also a layer of that where it's like when black people go to therapy and the clinician is white and they just feel totally missed.
[00:19:29] Kim Reese: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, it has been so empowering and he has, since, my parents are amazing. My dad is also, and so they've been, they're so proud of me. They're so supportive. Um, and he is he, he does, he just marvels at how different things are now in comparison to them. How just how much more normal it is to talk about therapy.
[00:19:58] Kim Reese: Um, but absolutely, um, . And so it's been so encouraging to have the experience of being a black therapist who sees mostly black clients. And, you know, I have two clinicians that work with me who worked with me doing some community-based mental health. They're black. Most of their clients are black. We're full, you know, on a waitlist.
[00:20:18] Kim Reese: Like to feel that there is a need. Um, it so inspires other ways to really take up space, um, because it just affirms that, you know, we know that representation really does matter. It is important to talk to someone in this space that you feel can see, you, um, can understand your experience. That's important.
[00:20:41] Kim Reese: And it's important for black people to know that that's important. Cuz there can be some shame in that. Um, I've had a lot of clients, you know, on a phone consult, um, I just kind of whisper. I'm so glad that you're black. I was worried that, you know, I wouldn't be able to find anyone and I'm like, “No. Yeah. And you don't have to whisper about that. It's okay for us to be excited about this.”
[00:21:02] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think that a lot of the different, like social identifiers that we use. I mean, it's not like you have to find somebody who exactly like lines up with your social identifiers. Right. But like, knowing that that person has some understanding and can have. Deeper empathy, like in the sense, like, “not only do I care that you feel this, but I have felt it too.
[00:21:29] Steph Barron Hall: And I know what it's like. And like, you don't have to explain what that experience was like for you”.
[00:21:34] Kim Reese: Yeah. Yes, that’s what I hear. Um, so I have clients who've worked with therapists who were not black and then have had the experience of working with me and attest to the difference, things that, that you just don't have to explain, or things that you don't like you just said, have to go back and re-explain, and definitely, um, that can be really hurtful.
[00:22:14] Kim Reese: Um, and not intentional on the clinician's part. Um, but to dismiss, um, experiences that we have out of oftentimes ignorance. Um, because as a centered person or a white person, you don't, you haven't been in those positions or you haven't your privileged, you know, you don't have to have experiences. So, um, yeah. To then be working with someone who, you know, who gets it, it feels really good.
[00:22:46] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Kim Reese: I was intentional about wanting to find a black woman as my therapist. And so, um, I really, it means a lot. It really does.
[00:23:01] Steph Barron Hall: yeah, yeah, I hope that there are a lot of people listening in North Carolina that can get on your wait.
[00:23:12] Kim Reese: Yeah. Um, yeah. Or, um, Therapist cuz we need more people to help.
[00:23:23] Steph Barron Hall: Who wanna become therapists?
[00:23:25] Kim Reese: yes. Yeah, yeah. Those people too. Reach out if you're a clinician and you're looking to work, please reach out. Mm-hmm
[00:23:35] Steph Barron Hall: That makes me like, really excited about your podcast, because I can just imagine people like, like young people listening to that podcast and being like I can be a therapist and like, this could be awesome and like getting inspired. So I hope that that is happening
[00:23:52] Kim Reese: Oh my gosh, Yeah. I hadn't even thought about, I had thought about, uh, well, yeah, people listening and just feeling like, okay, so the Enneagram can be, I think, for black people. Um, but the therapist part, I love the thought of that. So thanks for sharing that.
[00:24:11] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Um, I am really curious because one of the stereotypes of the self-preservation Three in particular, um, is about like having less connection to emotion and threes are obviously heart types but we tend to be real busy and we tend to not really pay attention to the emotional side. I think that for me, my subtype is the more emotional one, but also that's the piece that's been easiest for me to work on. So that's the thing I've been working on the most. There are other things I need to get to. Um, but obviously like, I'm really curious how that shows up for you in your day to day life.
[00:24:54] Steph Barron Hall: As a therapist, like you have to have that emotional depth and, and all of the training that you've gone through. And I know with the LCSW certification, there is a lot of, you know, supervision and all that kind of stuff that you have to go through on the front end too. So I'm just curious, like how that plays out and, and how that connection to emotion exists for you in, and that kind of thing.
[00:25:19] Kim Reese: Oh, um, I have always known that I am an emotionally sensitive person. I've always that I've always felt that. And going back to this notion of armor, and some of our experiences, especially as black people,
[00:25:44] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:25:45] Kim Reese: I felt like I got messaging surrounding my sensitivity and that I needed to, figure it out. like I was gonna be in situations and spaces where the expectations were gonna be low and I needed to exceed them. And so, um, so a little context. I was in predominantly white spaces as far as like education up through high school. My high school was all black. Um, and then college, undergrad, and grad school
[00:26:20] Kim Reese: I went to PWIs, predominantly white schools. So, um, That was kind of where my parents mostly were coming from and them kind of cautioning me and trying to prepare me for the types of spaces I was gonna occupy and kind of what my mindset needed to be in order for me to be successful. Um, and so with that, there wasn't a lot of time for emotions.
[00:26:45] Kim Reese: There wasn't a lot of space for emotions. You aren't like you aren't gonna have a lot of time to feel. Um, so you need to figure out how to uck it up, um, and not let them see you sweat was also oftentimes, a message I got. so, um, grappling with that, like knowing that I was very sensitive, knowing that I was feeling a lot, um, especially in some of those spaces and situations, there were times where I was bullied and picked on and it was about features.
[00:27:14] Kim Reese: And they were by white students. And that really, really hurt my feelings and there wasn't time to feel you needed to suck it up. Keep going. Don't let 'em see you sweat. So grappling with that was hard and has been hard and has been very impactful for me just throughout my development and throughout my life.
[00:27:40] Kim Reese: And so, it's interesting to kind of have all of that going on, knowing again, at a young age, what I'm feeling a call to do as far as, you know, professionally for the rest of my life, is because I want people to like, be able to feel,that was my whole thing. I knew in a sense that through feeling we could heal.
[00:28:01] Kim Reese: Um, if we could allow ourselves to connect with the hurt and the anger and the, uh, fear and the disappointment all of that, that we can experience on a day to day basis in response to racism, and classism and sexism, that if we can allow ourselves to feel, then we can heal through that. If we keep telling ourselves that we don't have time to feel and keep trying to brush it under the rug and say, we, you know, don't go to therapy, like it's just gonna perpetuate some of these patterns.
[00:28:27] Kim Reese: So I think it very much played into again, why I ended up doing the work that I'm doing. Um, and I think that's how it shows up in the work that I do on a day to day basis. I'm so passionate about it. So when I'm sitting in front of my clients and we're dealing with emotions, like I love it. I love it. I use the feelings wheel every day. Some of my clients will roll their eyes. Some of my clients now have it saved in their phone and they're like, I have it. And I'm ready for it. Some clients ask for it when they know that they are having some feelings and they're having a hard time identifying it.
[00:29:02] Kim Reese: Um, it's very, very, very important to the work that I do on a day-to-day basis.
[00:29:08] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. And I love that perspective too, because I think something you said is really interesting, which is that sense of sensitivity that you've always had and like that emotional sensitivity. I find that, I will say, I think that this is true of a lot of like Threes who haven't really done a lot of this work or keep themselves very busy.
[00:29:33] Steph Barron Hall: Um, but I find that a lot of the stereotypes about Threes are like that they don't feel, or that they don't care, even though we know that they're heart types, right. We know that they're in the heart center. Um, but the more I talk to Threes and, and I mean, this has been my experience myself is that feels like the emotions are just right under the surface.
[00:29:53] Steph Barron Hall: Um, And there is a lot more sensitivity than we typically let on.
[00:29:38] Kim Reese: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, my experience, you know, as a human, but also as a black woman, um, some of that has been well, you know, you won't, you won't have time to, you won't have time to do that. If you wanna make it in this world, if you wanna make you wanna be successful as a black person in this world, you won't, you gotta, you know, you're gonna have to work so much harder.
[00:30:03] Kim Reese: Already, you don't have time to let yourself feel and you really don't have time to let them see those feelings, especially if they're getting to you. That is what has kind of fed into that. And that is what I felt was very much missing when I was learning about my type, you know, being able to incorporate those types of experiences for us as black people, um, that goes into or can drive some of the ways again, we, we protect ourselves or we put on that armor in the form of our dominant type structure. Um, it was, it felt, it just feels important to include that in the conversation.
[00:30:41] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. How do you think the image thing comes up in the self-preservation Three?
[00:30:51] Kim Reese: Um, We tend to think we don't have the issue. Um, I tend to think that we were vain about not having that issue.
[00:31:21] Steph Barron Hall: Vain about not being a vain
[00:31:02] Kim Reese: Right
[00:31:02] Steph Barron Hall:mm-hmm yeah. And not realizing maybe that it's a stronger driving force than you realize. Yeah.
[00:31:33] Kim Reese: Yeah. Um, yes. And so, I never thought that, going back to some of the things that initially I've struggled with, like accepting, when I learned about, Threes, I never thought that fear of failure was a thing for me. I never really thought fear—wasn't sure what I was afraid of
[00:31:54] Kim Reese: I knew I didn't like snakes and I knew that the thought of not having, um, my loved ones in my life. That was really, really, really scary for me, but anything else? I really didn't, couldn't when anytime anyone would ask me about fear, I couldn't really name anything. And then just learning about, um, this and started paying more attention to myself and realized that like the idea of.
[00:32:24] Kim Reese: um, yeah, like not like failing at something. It was much more impactful to me, um, than I ever realized. And so for me, that I think is kind of how that so much of that is driven by image. Um, and I think that for me, that's how I wasn't aware of it. Um, was realizing that it, it is important to me, um, to be seen as, um, someone who people can admire, um, you know, to be able to, to accept that and realize at times that that's the case for me.
[00:32:57] Kim Reese: Um, and that that's very much an image-driven thing because who are you and how do you feel when that's not the case. You know, when you aren't being admired, what's there? Um, and in that moment where it's just like, what is, what is there? um, it just really made it clear, you know, where I needed to pay attention and where I needed to, to do some work and be graceful and loving and attentive with myself.
[00:33:06] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm yeah. And I always am curious. I actually was doing a typing interview recently and had this conversation about threes and failure, because they're like, well, I don't really fail at things. And I think that for a lot of Threes, that is true. Not only because we do tend to put in the work, but also cuz we don't tend to do things that we're not good at
[00:33:53] Kim Reese: right.
[00:33:54] Steph Barron Hall: you know?
[00:33:55] Steph Barron Hall: And we set ourselves up to always succeed, but I'm like, what are we missing? You know, what else in life could we be missing
[00:34:03] Kim Reese: Yeah, totally, totally. I laugh.I don't, and, and again, I don't, I didn't realize this until, I knew it was Three, uh, three and was open to learning about it. That's why I don't like to bowl. Um, that's why I don't like miniature golf. There's so many things that I've always just like
[00:34:24] Steph Barron Hall: oh [laughs]
[00:34:26] Kim Reese: When people ask —
[00:34:27] Steph Barron Hall: Oh my gosh
[00:34:28] Kim Reese: when people ask me if I wanna do it, I would just get so irritated, but I didn't know why, you know, and I wanted to hang out, but I just didn't wanna, I don't like game night sometimes, because depending on who I'm paired up with, if, you know, if we're not going to be on it, like it's gonna be anxiety provoking for me.
[00:34:42] Kim Reese: So I don't wanna do that. I don't want to lose. So, um, yes. But it was so helpful to realize that that was what that was because I didn't, I was not paying attention or I was blind to it.
[00:34:57] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I laugh so hard because it reminded me of your story about mini golf
[00:35:06] Kim Reese: Oh!
[00:35:07] Steph Barron Hall: your podcast.
[00:35:08] Kim Reese: yeah, that was at top golf. So driving range, little different, um, little different, but also, yeah, I didn't , I didn't want to do that because I didn't feel very confident about it going into it. And I did kill it in the end. Um, but [laughs]
[00:35:22] Steph Barron Hall: Well, it kind of made me think of this thing. So my neighbors like asked us to play softball with them, um, like in a league, and they both played growing up. Like they played in college, whatever. So like softball, baseball, you know? So the league that we're in is competitive. So I said, “sure, like, sounds fun.”
[00:35:50] Steph Barron Hall: And we moved to this area, like literally right before the pandemic. So we don't know anyone really. so like, you know, we'll make friends, whatever, it'll be fine. Um, but it's been a thing where I've had to intentionally be like, okay. If people see me suck at this, like it is gonna be okay, like I will survive.
[00:36:09] Steph Barron Hall: And that's kind of the, one of the things I've been learning. Like it's okay to suck at it a little bit, but also like, I'm also like, well, I don't wanna let the team down. So I'm like, you know,
[00:36:19] Kim Reese: Yeah,
[00:36:20] Steph Barron Hall: running more. I was like, I actually can't remember the last time I sprinted. And when you, after you hit the ball, you're like, oh, that base is far away.
[00:36:29] Steph Barron Hall: Like to run and like, oh my gosh, I kept pulling muscles the first few weeks because I hadn't sprinted in years, you know? And it's, like, oh gosh. So it's just been really like allowing people to see that and be like, “oh, I'm, I'm bad at this.” And also trying really hard, not to be like, to make it a joke.
[00:36:58] Steph Barron Hall: You know what I mean? Not to go into like, oh, it's just fun. It's just a joke. And, and like caring enough to, you know, show up and, and have a good time, but also be like a little competitive with it. Um, it's, it's vulnerable.
[00:37:15] Kim Reese: Mm-hmm it is
[00:36:57] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:36:58] Kim Reese: good word.
[00:37:20] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I mean, it's tough. I, and I, I really hope that people are inspired to go listen to the— it's in the third episode right?
[00:37:27] Steph Barron Hall: Of
[00:37:27] Kim Reese: I'm not but we can link it. I'll make sure you have the, um, the right episode. It is. Um,
[00:37:33] Steph Barron Hall: that killed me though. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to ask Kim about this.
[00:37:40] Kim Reese: yeah. Um, yeah, so yeah, cuz that not doing things that we're not good at that. I really didn't realize that that was even a thing
[00:37:52] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I even, you know, think, as I've been thinking about this, I'm like, oh, I could see how I chose a different sport from my older sister when I was a kid. So I didn't have to compete with her, know? um, so I could choose a sport that I would be really dominant and in, you know, I did never have to compete with her in her sport, you know that kind of thing.
[00:38:16] Steph Barron Hall: Um, we're just interesting,
[00:38:20] Kim Reese: We are. we are. um, I love basketball. I love, love, love, love, love basketball. And I played basketball. Um, middle school, high school. Um, my freshman year made the varsity team and did not even try out, try out for JV. And I was so afraid that I was gonna look like I did not know what I was doing, that I did not play and I never played again.
[00:38:48] Kim Reese: Um, now I'll just play, like I'll shoot around. And when I do it, there's like, you know, there's a part of me that does that grieves, like, girl, why didn't you stick with it? Cuz you really are good. You really are good. I am. Um, but that even then, you know, um, and not having the, for the longest, I told myself that I didn't play because, um, I wasn't disciplined enough cuz I didn't wanna show up for practice and that was not the truth.
[00:39:12] Kim Reese: So going back to the self-deceit. Right? That's what I was telling myself and therefore telling people, but it's really what I believe to be the truth, but the truth is I didn't want to be, I didn't wanna be vulnerable. I didn't want to take the risk of like learning how to get better at something that I was already obviously pretty good at.
[00:39:33] Kim Reese: Um, and what that would look like to people. Um, I didn't wanna take that risk, so I didn't stick with it.
[00:39:22] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Well, and it makes sense. Like we need these. We need these like survival mechanisms, and you can look back on your younger self and be like, oh, I have so much empathy for how she was showing up in the world. Um, and also sometimes I just wanna go back and be like, Hey, you know what, you're gonna be okay.
[00:40:02] Steph Barron Hall: Like, can, you can try it. People can see you fail and you're gonna be okay. Um, but I think American Idol for me really did a number on me cuz I saw so many people go up there and think they were amazing be awful, like not be able to carry a tune. and I for me made me be like, “oh my gosh, that is, I could not imagine anything more embarrassing.”
[00:40:27] Steph Barron Hall: I need to make sure I never do that.
[00:40:29] Kim Reese: Hmm.
[00:40:30] Steph Barron Hall: So I can only do things I'm like verified good at, you know what I
[00:40:33] Kim Reese: Hmm, Hmm. Yeah. Um, Yeah, I feel like I couldn't even watch those. like those, those particular like tryouts, like I couldn't, I would have to change the channel or walk out of the room. I like cringy to me. So I feel you
[00:40:49] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:50] Kim Reese: and not wanting to be in that, like ever feel what we are feeling for them and there, but they're, you know, they're not feeling that they have the confidence in the world, which you know, could be, I mean, it is inspiring, you know, they can get up there.
[00:41:06] Kim Reese: If they can get up some of those, if they can get up there in front of the whole world and sing, like we can, there are things that we can risk, you know, looking like we don't have it all together for and
[00:41:22] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. That's the risk. And the exposure too, of like, think for a lot of Threes, I mean, I had a similar experience to you where it's like, you read about the type and you're like, oh, it's so exposing it's mortifying.
[00:41:37] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:41:38] Kim Reese: Visceral reaction. I like, “no”
[00:41:44] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. Um, well, I'm curious what working on now. I know your podcast. You're gonna have season two, hopefully coming soon. I actually don't know if that's been announced it, so.
[00:41:56] Kim Reese: No, no, you're good. Yes. Season two is coming soon. I think we did just post something about like, want people to give us an idea of, um, what they'd like to hear, but we did, we had a successful, trip to DC and, kind of got a good idea of what we wanna put together for. The next season. So, so we have that, and then you mentioned the Melanated Enneagram.
[00:42:19] Kim Reese: So, initially that was launched, um, because as a clinician, I've already kind of touched on some of the limitations as far as impact. You know, I can. Work with clients one on one.And I can have other clinicians who are working with me to work with their clients one on one, and maybe we can do some group therapy, but right now, if you are, um, you're limited to where you're licensed.
[00:42:47] Kim Reese: Um, so they're just a number of limitations there. So I was hoping to find ways to still have, an impact. Um, but for it to be just larger. Um, so the, one of the thoughts with meated Enneagram was courses, um, coaching. Yeah a community, uh, especially for black people who are interested in using this tool, um, as a way to, understand how we can slip into, um, performing or achieving or perfectionism, or helping and giving, or mediating like how all of that can show up for us, especially as black people and how to be aware of it and the spaces that we occupy.
[00:43:37] Kim Reese: So, um, working on a certification and so once that, certification is completed, I'll be doing more coaching, which will be separate from what I'm doing as a therapist. Totally separate, but it'll be under the Melanated Enneagram. So, I'll have coaching, coaching sessions, and courses, coming within the next month or so.
[00:44:01] Steph Barron Hall: Ooh, that's so exciting.
[00:44:02] Kim Reese: Yeah, I'm really, really, really excited about it.
[00:44:06] Steph Barron Hall: So I think that those things will be available once, this comes out. So I will make sure to link that stuff
[00:44:13] Kim Reese: Cool. Thank you.
[00:44:14] Steph Barron Hall: put that up there. Amazing. I love it. Okay. Couple last questions. So these questions that I've asked everyone
[00:44:23] Kim Reese: Okay.
[00:44:24] Steph Barron Hall: And selfishly, I just, this first one I love to read.
[00:44:30] Steph Barron Hall: And so I want your book recommendations, so tell me about a book that has helped you refreshed you, or shaped you in the last year.
[00:44:17] Kim Reese: Yes. Okay. I have two. one is The Untethered Soul. Have you heard of that one? Um,
[00:44:46] Steph Barron Hall: mm-mm.
[00:44:47] Kim Reese: it's a pretty, pretty popular book. It's actually a client who recommended it to or mentioned it to me, the author is essentially talking about, um, it's by Michael singer, the author's name. Um, he's talking about staying open.
[00:45:03] Kim Reese: Um, and so going back to some of what we were talking about as far as being Threes and at times grappling with our relationships with our emotions and with our heart, the way he speaks about how staying open and choosing to stay open is an option. It was, it was very much, it was restorative for me and really changed, my outlook, especially in a lot of what times can be like really painful or hard situations, challenging situations, choosing that versus choosing to close up.
[00:45:39] Kim Reese: So that paired with, the 1619 project, um, which, um, is, uh, book pretty much about, uh, critical race theory and having a better understanding of how slavery and racism, has been just so incredibly impactful and influential to the birth of this country and how it can continue to show up and impact, all of us but especially black people.
[00:46:08] Kim Reese: Um, and so therefore how it can be really challenging for us to stay open. So putting those two together, has just really, really, it's just been, they've been really, really helpful for me. This year.
[00:46:22] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I think seeing that through line. Like the softness and openness and how courageous that is not only with you, but you know, also with my interview with Camille and Jessica Dixon, who was on the podcast, we recorded a little while ago just talking about that, like tapping into that level of vulnerability, and I'm learning more and more about like how impactful that is and how revolutionary truly that is.
[00:46:58] Kim Reese: Mm-hmm
[00:46:59] Steph Barron Hall: So I love that perspective. Gonna have to think about that a little more. Cool. And then what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?
[00:46:49] Kim Reese: Mm-hmm . This is a new one too, but man, it's been helpful and it is, “Learn to take the L” it's been a number of things that I've kind of had to come up against recently that's just felt like hits. Um, and it's felt like hits so much because it's felt it's, it's triggered that belief of, you're not succeeding, you're not doing enough, sometimes maybe tapping into a sense of like, you know, value and worth.
[00:47:45] Kim Reese: And so to be able to realize that none of that is the case. You're taking an L so, you know, it's a loss and you have to learn how to just take that so that you can get up. Shame is one of those things that will keep you down. So if something comes along and it knocks you out, um, if you slip into shaming yourself and falling for this belief that, your worth is tied to, or hinged upon this thing, having been successful, um, then you're gonna stay knocked down.
[00:48:16] Kim Reese: And so you have to quickly be able to recognize that so that you can put it in its place and get back up, because the work that I'm so passionate about doing, and the life that I'm so passionate about pursuing. Um, it's gonna require that I get in the ring and at times get knocked down. So that was so, so, so helpful for me, um, to just not get stuck sometimes when, again, it feels like, Ugh, something's not working the way that I thought it was gonna work or this goal, I have to move the date or any of that, helped me to just be able to accept that, feel it, you know, but know that don't have to hinge my, my worth and my value on it.
[00:48:55] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Ooh, that's so powerful. So, so powerful. Okay. I think that all of our Threes are gonna love this conversation. So I'm so grateful that you've joined me on this podcast and I hope everyone, you know, gets introduced to your podcast and your work if they're not already. And, um, has been lovely.
[00:49:15] Kim Reese: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I love that you're so passionate about showcasing other people's work and interested in learning about the purpose behind their work. I mean, obviously like that means a lot. So, thanks for having both Camille and I on this show and giving us some space to talk about the work that we're doing, and thanks for the work that you're doing.
[00:49:18] Steph Barron Hall: Of course. Thanks so much.
[00:49:28] Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one. If you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on Instagram @ninetypesco to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you.
[00:49:52] I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.
[00:50:06] The Enneagram in Real Life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Dr. Dream Chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on Spotify.
