Joy, Liberation, and Antiracist Enneagram with Jessica Denise Dickson
Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, the weekly podcast where we go beyond Enneagram theory and dive into practical understanding, new clarity, and fresh insight. We’re talking about how each type is in REAL LIFE so you can remember – you’re more than just a number.
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Jessica Denise Dickson, a life empowerment coach who believes that when Black women heal, the world heals. She believes that the path to personal and collective healing comes through embodying our Enneagram and liberation work. Jessica supports clients, through groups and one-on-one work, with the reclamation of our full humanity - healing work that leads us to equity, justice, and freedom. We discuss that when we do this work, we live more authentically with self-trust, self-safety, and fully-embodied freedom, and this echoes into our communities and changes the world. We explore Jessica’s beautiful and powerful experience as an Enneagram Eight whose love for life, people, and justice is so evident and quite contagious!
Follow Jessica on Instagram:
@jessicaddickson & @jessicaddicksoncoaching
Looking for our key takeaways? Jump to them here:
Discovering the Enneagram and core type: Am I a Two or Eight? [13:37]
“Is this my trauma or is this my type?”: Acknowledging outside factors [22:19]
Gaining perspective and asking the right questions as a leader [35:43]
How to recognize the passion of lust & cherish the virtue of innocence [49:54]
*Quick note: Jessica explains how a black male type four may differ from stereotypical descriptions of this Enneagram type. She uses an example based on one specific individual and is not intended to reflect the black community as a whole. [43:08]
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Definition of Social Identifiers [03:42]
Definition of Whiteness [04:18]
Jessica’s Orientation Course [07:18]
Other Helpful Resources:
This Week’s Guest Picks:
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Enneagram Resources for you!
Want to keep the conversation going? Join me on Instagram @ninetypesco to keep learning and chatting about how our types show up in REAL LIFE!
Learn more about subtypes! Download my free subtypes guide here.
Want to keep learning? Join my Enneagram in Real Life course to start applying all this Enneagram knowledge and start GROWING! Check it out here: https://www.enneagramirl.com
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Listen to the Episode
Read the Full, Unabridged Transcript
[00:00:00] Steph Barron Hall: Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Barron Hall, creator of Nine Types Co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in Love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea-curious human, just like you. Be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show.
[00:00:38] Steph Barron Hall: Hello, welcome back to the podcast. I am so glad you're here and I'm so thrilled to share this episode with you. I talked with Jessica Denise Dixon, and I will introduce her a bit more in a second here. But I just love this conversation. There was so much laughter and singing, which was not something I expected.
[00:01:00] Steph Barron Hall: But there were just so many great tidbits that I wrote down even as I was relistening to the episode. So the thing that's so powerful about Jessica's teaching is that she uses the Enneagram with anti-racism and liberation work. The Enneagram is really powerful in this work because it naturally invites us to examine ourselves, to look at our blind spots or what our psyche doesn't really want us to see. And a lot of the work around the Enneagram is in understanding our defense mechanisms so that we can observe the truth that's beneath them.
[00:01:29] Steph Barron Hall: Jessica’s teaching on this topic is incredibly valuable. And I highly recommend not only listening to this episode, but following her on Instagram and joining one of her courses. She's so experienced in both doing her own work with the Enneagram and with teaching and coaching others. And she's just an insightful and incredibly compassionate guide in inner work.
[00:01:50] Steph Barron Hall: For this episode. I have a few quick notes before I introduce Jessica, because we're talking about anti-racism and what we're talking about is really getting space from a lot of the ways that we've kind of been socialized and the culture that we live in and kind of separating from it in the sense of seeing it with more clarity and understanding and really understanding, “You know what, I'm going to actively work against racism”, or “I'm actively going to work against structures and systems of oppression so that I can see liberation and equity for all. And part of that means that I have to really intensely look at myself and examine myself and even throughout this episode, as we're talking about some of these topics, you'll hear me kind of wrestling through things and thinking out loud and processing things. And I think that's such an important part of the process.
[00:02:46] Steph Barron Hall: Because what I want to you to hear from me today is not that I'm an expert on this, but that I am genuinely committed to learning more so where I don't know something, I want to know and I need to know. Right? So I kind of want to invite you also to have that sense of curiosity. That we're doing this together and we are learning and processing, and we all do that a little bit differently. So, please hear that Jessica is going to teach us so much and also that we're all still in process. So there's no expectation here of perfection or anything like that.But this is a safe space to be able to think about these things and to wrestle through them. So just to define a couple of the things that we're going to talk about today,
[00:03:35] Steph Barron Hall: First, we're going to talk about, social identifiers and whiteness. So I want to define those concepts upfront. So social identifiers are the identities that we use or others perceive about us, that are layered together to make up who we are. Things like social class, race, or gender, and lots of other examples are examples of social identifiers. I personally found the book Difference Matters by Brenda J. Allen, incredibly useful and understanding and deconstructing these ideas.
[00:04:04] Steph Barron Hall: But I also really love Where We Stand Class Matters by Bell Hooks, which is about social class. And I think that's something that isn't often talked about in this conversation, but it's really, really useful and helpful to understand.
[00:04:18] Steph Barron Hall: And the second term I wanted to define is whiteness. So whiteness is not really about, you know, having a specific skin color or you know, being white-bodied or anything like that. It's actually this concept that is really upheld by other things like systems of white supremacy and patriarchy and these things. That is the overall arching idea that to be white is to be without culture. So this idea that, you know, especially in the United States, this is really prevalent. Even Tony Morrison says, “In this country, American means white. Everybody else has to hyphenate.” So, it's taking that concept and saying, you know, to be white is neutral and good and correct. And so everything else is other.
[00:05:09] Steph Barron Hall: And really kind of labeling others by this and assuming that there's some sense of rationality or some sense of logic or some sense of purity, that's connected to being white. Where— and kind of assuming that, for example, “Oh, well, they have an angle because they’re from this culture versus I don't have an angle because I'm white.”
[00:05:36] Steph Barron Hall: So that's one of the ways that I kind of see it play out and understanding these contexts, especially for people who are white-bodied like me, is about learning to recognize that we're wearing this lens. It's about learning to recognize it's the air we're breathing or the water we're swimming in. We don't have to go out and adopt these ideas, or internalize them. It's very much a part of the system. And so understanding it, it allows us to get space from it so that we can observe it. So that we can deconstruct it, dissect it and understand how much that lens is coloring actually the way that we see the world. And so I think one of the most pernicious things about this is that we don't know that we're wearing the glasses. So, in this conversation with Jessica today, we really talk about how
[00:06:26] Steph Barron Hall: this is very true in Enneagram circles as well. Like this assumption that, white American fours are, you know, how for show up in the world, and kind of taking a different perspective and taking a different lens on it. And getting really curious about how it shows up in other cultures. So,
[00:06:49] Steph Barron Hall: it's just such a different way of looking at things. And I think it's so, so important and crucial because I really believe that until we start understanding this part of ourselves and seeing these things and waking up to them that we can't move forward. And so I love that Jessica brings such a connected and community approach to healing and growth. So to learn more about these topics, I also highly recommend Jessica's orientation course.
[00:07:19] Steph Barron Hall: Which I'll link in the show notes, but you can also find her other offerings there as well. So with that, Jessica Denise Dixon is a life empowerment coach who believes that when black women heal the world heals. She believes that the path to personal and collective healing comes through embodying our Enneagram and liberation work.Jessica supports clients through groups and one-on-one work
[00:07:44] Steph Barron Hall: with the reclamation of our full humanity. Healing work that leads us to equity, justice, and freedom. When we do this work, we live more authentically with self-trust, self-safety, and fully embodied freedom. And this echoes into our communities and changes the world. And if you're listening to that, it already feeling inspired. I'm so glad. So get ready. We are going to laugh. We might just sing a bit, like I said, and I am so glad to introduce to you, Jessica Denise Dickson.
[00:08:20] Steph Barron Hall: Before we get into today's episode, I want to talk to you about subtypes. Now subtypes have been transformational in my own Enneagram journey, and they've also been so incredibly helpful for my clients and my course students, and even some of the teams that I've worked with. So with that said, I want you to head over to the show notes or go to ninetypes.co/subtypes and download my free subtype guide. You'll get a breakdown of what the whole word means. The entire concept. All 27 subtypes. And you will unlock this new understanding of yourself and the people around you, and you'll have a new way to apply the Enneagram in your daily life.
[00:09:01] Steph Barron Hall: So again, head to ninetypes.co/subtypes, or check out that link in the show notes to learn more. Enjoy.
[00:09:13] Steph Barron Hall: Okay. Well, welcome to the podcast, Jessica. So excited that you're here.
[00:09:21] Jessica Denise Dickson: Oh, my gosh. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
[00:09:24] Steph Barron Hall: Of course, I love hanging out with you because you are so happy and joyful and like giggly. Which we will get to this, but in your course that I've been taking, one thing that I noticed that I really love, that I didn't expect was that you just sing. [Laughter] And I love it. I'm like, oh my gosh, I did not expect it. And I'm like, you know, writing my notes or whatever. And then I'm like, “oh my gosh, we're singing now. Cool!” [Laughter]
[00:10:08] Jessica Denise Dickson: Oh my gosh. That makes me so happy. Oh, I do. It is a thing I'm like—my wifi is called human juke box. I love to sing.
[00:10:23] Steph Barron Hall: Yes. Okay. If we were to just catch you on a random Wednesday, what would you be singing?
[00:10:32] Jessica Denise Dickson: Ooh, that's a good question. So it's actually an auspicious question because I just, so I— with all of the things that I am, I am a fitness instructor and for my body pump class, which is just a, you know, 60 minute class or 55 minute class set to music, I chose all songs that you could sing along to for this particular class.
[00:10:59] Jessica Denise Dickson: So just a few hours ago, and I have been rocking out and singing all the songs. It's my life. Another is [sings] turn up music. You know, we got some usher in there. We have, there's just so much that is— [sings] I’ll catch a grenade for ya.
[00:11:21] Steph Barron Hall: Oh yeah.
[00:11:22] Jessica Denise Dickson: I mean, just like, [sings] we are the champions, my friend, like I'm just, I'm in it, I'm in it with them. I'm like, y'all can sing along if you want. I can't always tell if they're singing along, but some of them were like, I did sing. I'm like, okay. Okay. It wasn't just me up here, belting my soul to you as your instructor, but
[00:11:45] Steph Barron Hall: I mean, I'm sure that's like an extra level, like another layer to the workout, you know?
[00:11:51] Jessica Denise Dickson: I think so. And I think that it helps you distract from the pain. So I'm like always— if there is a chance for you to sing along it, just a little bit of something to take you off from the pain to bring you joy and to get you, you know. Anyway, I love it personally, but that's what I've been seeing is my whole body pump playlist lately.
[00:12:12] Steph Barron Hall: I love it. Okay. Yes, we are gonna, we're gonna like need to spy on that playlist. I think.
[00:12:19] Jessica Denise Dickson: Can I say other than that, though, Hamilton probably is like the thing I'm most likely to be listening to or singing My Shot usually. I'm usually rapping that, you know, gotta keep my, you know, kind of keep, keep myself spry, keep myself young. So.
[00:12:38] Steph Barron Hall: So Hamilton, there you go. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. Okay. Well that was not on our like approved list of questions. Just kidding.
[00:12:50] Jessica Denise Dickson: No, it was unexpected and I delight in it. Thank you.
[00:12:53] Steph Barron Hall: Yes. Yes. I love it. Well I think, you know, obviously we're here to talk about the Enneagram and talk about not only the Enneagram , but like what it's like to be your type in a lot of ways. I find that we get really bogged down in these, like, you know, like these stereotype descriptions of what each type is and, I mean, I'm sure people who are listening thus far, if they don't already know your type, they might be like, “Oh, well, I bet I know what type she is cuz she's so fun and she dances around.” Right? And they would be wrong. And so I would love to hear about your type and how you discovered the Enneagram and that whole process.
[00:13:37] Jessica Denise Dickson: Oh my gosh. So, to start out, I am a type eight on the Enneagram. A lot of people think that I am a type seven because I tend to lead with joy. I have deep dimples. I have a boisterous laugh. I tend to just be happy all the time, which is an interesting thing because it takes me a lot longer to actually recognize that I'm— if I'm depressed, because I tend to just be optimistic and happy and I'm— I just kinda like slide into depression and then I'm in a deep place without even seeing how I got there sometimes.
[00:14:14] Jessica Denise Dickson: So it has its pros and cons of kind of naturally being that way. But the work that is mine to do is Enneagram eight work.
[00:14:23] Steph Barron Hall: Uh, huh. Yeah.
[00:14:24] Jessica Denise Dickson: And that's when people try to— people either think I'm a Two or a Seven often. And I'm like, oh, that is because I am doing my work. Like I am deeply committed to being someone who
[00:14:36] Jessica Denise Dickson: leads people in work and who is doing her own work. So for me, that is— it's a high, high value and a high priority. I found the Enneagram because my background is in higher education and I was just starting to supervise professionals. And I was looking for a different kind of professional development tool.
[00:15:00] Jessica Denise Dickson: We used things like True Colors and Myers Briggs, and that all was really nice, but I was like, “I want something new”, cuz I was in my mid twenties and I was gonna be supervising some people who were in their sixties, seventies and eighties. So I was like, as a youngin I need to come correct. Like I need to bring it, I need to bring it.
[00:15:18] Jessica Denise Dickson: And so I did a Google search. Somehow Google sent me to this PDF about the Enneagram and what I loved about it was that it did not just talk about our strengths. But it talked about our weaknesses and the things to look out for and the things that might be concerns for us. And I was like, “oh, this doesn't blow, smoke up your ass.
[00:15:42] Jessica Denise Dickson: I'm in. Like I am in.” And so, but that is not how I found my type. So I had this beautiful wealth of knowledge. And I was like, I wonder if there's a test for this. So I Googled the test and then I found a test, took the test. Typed as a type two. And for maybe two years thought I was a type two. I always knew, eight always came in very close behind it.
[00:16:12] Jessica Denise Dickson: And I was like, oh, okay. But like Two and Eight are connected. And like, maybe I'm just like stressed out a lot or, you know. And I'm like, if you are living in your stress point, it might not be your stress point. It might be your core type. So yay. And I realized for me that there was this ideal self in the type two, because the type two woman, especially, is the ideal Christian woman.
[00:16:46] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah
[00:16:47] Jessica Denise Dickson: And it's, it's the Proverbs 31 woman. It's the, you know, it's the way that we're socialized in the church to be
[00:16:55] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:16:56] Jessica Denise Dickson: you know, and the way that the church valued being self-sacrificial and putting everyone else first and not having your own whatever. So it was, it was more of an ideal that I was committed to being than a true sense of myself.
[00:17:15] Jessica Denise Dickson: And when I heard more women speak about being Enneagram eights, that really helped.
[00:17:21] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:17:22] Jessica Denise Dickson: Partly because, in many of the descriptions of the type eight that I read, they sounded like violent bullying, white men that I knew.
[00:17:30] Steph Barron Hall: Sure.
[00:17:31] Jessica Denise Dickson: So there was like, what space was there for me to see myself in those descriptions. There was little to none.
[00:17:38] Jessica Denise Dickson: So when I heard women, I was like, “Oh wait. Oh, that's how that could look? Oh, Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.” And I finally landed in eight and then so much made sense about the — I've gotten feedback on being abrasive. I've gotten feedback on, you know, my intensity of all these things that I had gotten feedback on that I really didn't know why, or didn't really think about them before, but it was like when eight made sense it was like, everything fell into place, almost like those, the videos of like the bricks that they—
[00:18:16] Jessica Denise Dickson: I don't know if you've seen like those viral videos where they stand up bricks and then they push one over and everything just falls into place. That's what it felt like to me when I found eight and I'm like, “Oh!” and I avoided the eight because the passion of lust, are you kidding? Like run from sexual sin was the biggest part of my identity for a while.
[00:18:39] Jessica Denise Dickson: Um, and so that was kind of my journey into both finding the system and finding myself in the system because, and I think that that's an important distinction that I wanna make because often people try to fit a type on to who they are. And again, because of some ideal that they have, or because it's a better version of them that they would rather be, and it's, they unconsciously don't know that it's not true.
[00:19:10] Jessica Denise Dickson: You know, there's all of these things that go along with that. And so people try to fit the system on and you need to look and find yourself in it because the system is just a system. You know, it's not— you are nuanced and complex. And I think too, my— after I realized I was an Eight my friend was like, “You might be a social, you might be a social too.”
[00:19:35] Jessica Denise Dickson: And I'm like, “All right, let me look into instincts and subtypes.”
[00:19:42] Steph Barron Hall: yes.
[00:19:43] Jessica Denise Dickson: I started to look into that. And when I read thedescriptions for the type eight, I resonated with each of the descriptions in any book or anything that I've read about it. But with the type two, I only resonated with the social two. And I was like, “oh, this is not the same energy.” And the types for me, it's such an energetic thing with the types. Like when I, even when I'm thinking about like integration and disintegration points or stress or growth, like it's about the energy that comes with that, that we need, you know, or that we, that we're avoiding in something else. Like it's such these, the way that these types show up and the way that they move is so about the energy of them.
[00:20:32] Jessica Denise Dickson: So, I think when we are able to look at that, it makes typing a little bit simpler but not necessarily easier because we are complex and, you know, even thinking about, and I know you didn't ask this, I'm just, I'm just gonna keep talking. Apparently. [Laughter]
[00:20:53] Steph Barron Hall: Just do it. Go for it. Loving it.
[00:20:56] Jessica Denise Dickson: You know, when I work with black women, for example, even just thinking about the instincts, you know, one of the things that we do is like to, you know, do you know your dominant instinct? How does this show up? Almost everyone resonates with the self-preservation instinct. Almost every black woman that I speak to that when I run groups. It is a, it is, it's a well-oiled instinct, even if it's not the dominant instinct, because in this society, we have to every single day navigate whiteness, which as a structure of advantage and privilege that we do not have, we have to navigate that in everything that goes along with it, which could be harm. It could be, you know, microaggressions at work. There's a lot of ways that it shows up, but we know the self-preservation well, because of it.
[00:21:53] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:21:54] Jessica Denise Dickson: and, you know, so even that can— there has to be, um, a, a, a wider, conversation about typing so that people, and especially people of color, people who have, and are living currently in a society that actively oppresses and seeks to oppress, there has to be a space for people to find themselves.
[00:22:19] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. How do you, when you're doing that work, because I know that you do so much deep work with so many different people, how do you help your people that you're working with, like your clients, tease apart to like, you know, what is coming from which portion of how they're socialized and how they are—
[00:22:44] Steph Barron Hall: they've been taught to act, kind of like what you are just referring to as well with, you know, the Christian woman, all those social identifiers that we have. Like how do you tease those apart from the type when you're working with them?
[00:22:57] Jessica Denise Dickson: This is a really good question and an important question. And sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't.
[00:23:04] Jessica Denise Dickson: I think that in a society that values individualism, we could sometimes think that I have to know the difference and in more collective societies, that's not always a priority.
[00:23:16] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.
[00:23:17] Jessica Denise Dickson: And so I, it just depends on what the person needs in the moment.
[00:23:22] Jessica Denise Dickson: You know, sometimes it can be really helpful to do the exploration and see, is this something that is sourced from outside that, you know, white supremacy or patriarchy or capitalism, are these structures that they're putting on me? Or is this something that actually arises from within me? that is deep down at the core of who I am. and sometimes that takes time and it takes care. And sometimes it's really just a matter of looking at, okay, how is this impacting me now? So I might feel very self-pres right now, but maybe that's not my dominant instinct. And maybe I got it because of all these things, but how is that impacting how I show up now?
[00:24:10] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:24:11] Jessica Denise Dickson: So it really depends on where a person is and in how we go in a specific direction, because I think that, you know, it's always helpful to explore, but people can get so caught up in, “Is this my trauma or is this my type? Or is this who I really, who I am?” And I'm like, that question may not be as helpful as you think it is.
[00:24:33] Jessica Denise Dickson: It may not lead you to the place that you're hoping that it will. And I think that there's almost a part of that where people can get to like distance themselves or disconnect because if it's my trauma, “Okay, that wasn't really me”. If it's my, if it's my type, “that wasn't really me”. If it's all of these things and it wasn't really me instead of being like, “Alright, actually trauma is something that we all experience at some point that there's actually no shame from having trauma or, even recognizing that I'm living in a traumatized way state regularly.
[00:25:15] Jessica Denise Dickson: There's actually no shame in that. It means that I'm human and I'm doing what I can to survive that my nervous system is functioning in the ways that it knows how to make sure that I make it to another day.” So when we can strip off like the expectation that this thing is going to solve the mysteries that I have about myself, we can really look honestly and just see how is it showing up for you today?
[00:25:41] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:25:42] Jessica Denise Dickson: Sometimes I, you know, I do exploration, you know, to help people like really think like when was the first time you remember living out the unconscious patterns of your type consciously, and it's a fun question, but not everyone is ready for that question.
[00:26:00] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. I love that spirit of curiosity that you bring to it though, because, I find that that is the work and just like knowing you some and knowing more about the type of work that you do, like that curiosity and that depth runs through everything. Like you're not gonna show up and be like, “If you're an Eight, you do this.”
[00:26:22] Steph Barron Hall: It's more like, you know, how is this showing up for you? And I love that, that question that you're asking too of—because I've been working through that actually with, one of my coaches and I'm actually doing this type of therapy called brain spotting right now
[00:26:38] Jessica Denise Dickson: Oh, I've heard of it.
[00:26:40] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. So, like I'm the client, I'm not a therapist.
[00:26:44] Steph Barron Hall: Um but you know, you know, I'm getting brain spotted, I guess. but, and thinking through like, I'm seeing my type structure. Very strong in a lot of the social instinct, very strong in the image and identity questions of the type three, like in these very early memories. And it's so clear to me that, you know, I was never taught to think like that, like that is my default setting in a lot of ways.
[00:27:21] Steph Barron Hall: And also knowing that the Enneagram work, right, is returning to essence. So returning to what's beneath that structure, you know? But it's just so fascinating to think about. The other thing that I wanted to point out that you said reminded me of something that you mentioned in your course. You said multiple times shame, like when you encounter shame, especially in anti-racism work. Right? So when you're thinking about concepts of like whiteness, white supremacy, like those cultures that you have been socialized in in a lot of ways, I don't know if those are the exact terms that you would use, but, shame means you care. So you're not gonna shame people for it. People a lot of the time, carry shame and start shaming themselves. And you're inviting, you know, me as the student to say, “Okay, shame is just showing that you care about this. So like, what else is there?”
[00:28:20] Jessica Denise Dickson: It is a beautiful core part of our humanity that demonstrates that we are connected to each other and we know it. And so when shame arises, its job is to point us to where the fractures may be, so that we can repair so that we can heal so that we can actually move toward each other and, you know, reconcile what needs to be reconciled.
[00:28:46] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:28:46] Jessica Denise Dickson: We can get caught up in shame spirals, or even feel shamed by another. And some, you know, and even in old social justice movements, like using shame as a tactic was a thing and people realize, “Oh, that only works to some extent.” And so that has changed over the years, you know, because shame is the thing often that gets us to recognize we really care and it's getting stuck in it.
[00:29:13] Jessica Denise Dickson: That becomes then the issue that I see, and one thing that I like to say is that curiosity, triumphs over judgment.
[00:29:22] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:29:23] Jessica Denise Dickson: And when we get curious about, “Wow, what is this feeling? Wow, I am in a trauma response but I seem safe right now.” What's happening? When we get curious about that, it opens up the world. And I think that's especially important for white people to do quite frankly, to develop curiosity because when the norm that is assumed is you, you don't necessarily have to be curious, whereas people of color having to navigate whiteness
[00:29:22] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:30:00] Jessica Denise Dickson: always are having to be very curious and to know a lot, a lot, a lot about how to be in the world. So it's like I have to be curious about how I show up. I have to be curious about how I'm gonna be received, about how that person is gonna show up, about driving through a specific town and whether or not, you know, I can go there at a certain time and whether when I should stop for gas on a road trip, I mean, just all of the things that go along with it, that a person who's white may never have even needed to think.
[00:30:36] Jessica Denise Dickson: Um, because you know of this, this viewpoint, this stance that whiteness gives this perspective that whiteness gives, because of the socialization and the ways that it's internalized and the way it'sinternalized here within us with within systems, you know, and within cultures. So
[00:30:58] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yeah. And then it sounds like your invitation then is to like, get really curious about that and, not fall into the shame, because I I've felt that. And I definitely know a lot of other people that I've talked with have felt that shame of, like, I've never had to think about this before,
[00:31:15] Jessica Denise Dickson: mm-hmm
[00:31:16] Steph Barron Hall: and that can be painful.
[00:31:19] Steph Barron Hall: Um, I can let it be painful in myself and then move forward. I don't need to like go out and make everyone else feel it.
[00:31:28] Jessica Denise Dickson: Well and, to celebrate it.
[00:31:30] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah
[00:31:31] Jessica Denise Dickson: Something new comes online within us. That is worth celebrating. Because especially when people are awakening to anti-racism stuff, I mean, when something new arises, there was a part that has laid dormant within you
[00:31:52] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:31:53] Jessica Denise Dickson: and it is now awake. And anytime that happens, I think that there is something that we can rejoice in.
[00:32:01] Jessica Denise Dickson: Now, may there be pain? Yes. May there be grief? Probably
[00:32:06] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:32:07] Jessica Denise Dickson: Is shame gonna be there? Oh, absolutely.
[00:32:10] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:32:11] Jessica Denise Dickson: And what opportunities does that give us? Opportunities to repair harm when harm's done. Opportunities to, you know, create connection where connection has been broken. I mean, there's so much that becomes available and becomes possible
[00:32:34] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm
[00:32:34] Jessica Denise Dickson: when these parts of ourselves that we may not have known before awaken, and they may awaken through the feeling of shame.
[00:32:42] Jessica Denise Dickson: And that curiosity is the thing that helps you move through it, to not get stuck in the, “Woe is me. I must be bad cuz I'm feeling shame.” No, you feel shame because you're human and you just aren't used to being a human. You're actually not used to just being fully human and allowed to be human because even for white people, whiteness fits you into a box so nothing is challenged and everything remains.
[00:33:10] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm yeah.
[00:33:11] Jessica Denise Dickson: And of course the impacts on white people and now white people are vastly different and it makes even white people small.
[00:33:19] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Well, I think, I'm just thinking of the tendency in our— in the U.S. especially, but a lot of countries to like prioritize only the head type center of intelligence. And so people who have this gut knowing it's like, “no, no, no, don't listen to that.” Or people who have that heart knowing, um, it's like, “oh, you can't make a decisions with their emotions.”
[00:33:48] Steph Barron Hall: And it's like, no, that is your intelligence. Your emotions are telling you something very important, but we just discard it. And I just find it so necessary, which is one of the reasons I love the Enneagram too, but that concept— I'm just processing in real time.It's probably gonna, you know, come online later—but I was just thinking through that concept that you're talking about of like making like the idea of whiteness making even white people small. And like, obviously you're talking about like whiteness as the concept and the structure,
[00:34:28] Jessica Denise Dickson: yeah
[00:34:29] Steph Barron Hall: the way that it works in our society, where it is really keeping us stuck where it's keeping us separate from our emotions.
[00:34:41] Steph Barron Hall: And all the other things that we know, like, we have so much that we know.
[00:34:47] Jessica Denise Dickson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of wisdom that lies in being able to look at life outside of this whiteness, you know, and there's— I just, it's like a whole new world. I won't sing Aladdin. [laughter]
[00:35:07] Steph Barron Hall: We'd forgive you. [laughs] Oh, man.
[00:35:11] Jessica Denise Dickson: It opens up so much. And I think it's especially important to have these conversations in the Enneagram community and as we're doing Enneagram work because it can be so, mm, tempting the norm, even to focus so much on the individual work that we have to do. And I was actually thinking about this a while ago and I'll share, I like wrote half a post about it.
[00:35:43] Jessica Denise Dickson: And I was just like, so overwhelmed that I'd never put it up. But I was thinking about an Enneagram coach that I used to work with. I used to do my own work in this person's groups and it was a white man. and we did work a lot of shadow work and some of it was around disowned vulnerability, which is great. And my work as a type eight, right? Like we gotta reclaim and like integrate vulnerability. Like that's just so important. It's crucial. It's crucial. But I think about how I didn't get support in exploring what that looked like for me as a black woman in structures that were upheld by whiteness and what it did was— so I was doing like this deep wor work, shadow work on vulnerability.
[00:36:48] Jessica Denise Dickson: And so after, like I actually had heart pain that had no physical, no physical cause, I guess. Everything was fine in my body, but every time I bumped up against vulnerability, I'd have this pain. And I was like— I was so new. I was just so new. And so like, this is my, this is where my optimism gets me in trouble. I was just like so optimistic. I was like, “oh, this is what it is.”
[00:37:19] Jessica Denise Dickson: And, as an Eight, I'm like, well of course it has to be painful to, you know, to be like— it's not intense, like I'm not doing it.
[00:37:26] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:37:28] Jessica Denise Dickson: it's just like, okay, yep. Yep, yep, yep. But I needed the support to be able to say, “Hey, in what systems, in what structures, is it safe for you to practice vulnerability?” Because I'm out here just like practicing vulnerability and people who have the power and privilege to harm me are harming me.
[00:37:54] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:38:00] Jessica Denise Dickson: And it was just so painful to look back at that and be like, wow, I was so— I was so unprotected, you know. And this is why people who are leading people in the work need to be able to have these perspectives. Cuz if you're gonna talk to a type eight, any of the types, but since I'm a type eight, you know, about what it means to practice vulnerability, you need to be able to ask the right questions.
[00:38:27] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.
[00:38:27] Jessica Denise Dickson: They may not be thinking about it consciously because you're the expert, you know, especially if they've really developed, you know, that you are a trustworthy person and they've let their guard down and you're— but you're not asking those questions, they might not think about it in exactly the same ways, or know to. So we have to be responsible for the ways that we work with people, you know, as Enneagram coaches and practitioners and teachers, and we have to be able to have these conversations. It took me a while to realize, “Oh, I can do the work and it doesn't have to hurt.” like, “Oh no, that probably is— like that pain in your heart? Mm. Yeah. Maybe that was a sign not to go in but to take a step back and resource your body.”
[00:39:19] Steph Barron Hall: Mmmm. Yeah.
[00:39:19] Jessica Denise Dickson: But I didn't realize it at the time. You know, I was just like, all right, we're doing the deep work. Yeah! And I was all in.
[00:39:28] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:39:29] Jessica Denise Dickson: And so that's why I hope that conversations like this can be had at a deeper level, because it could be life or death. It could be harm, you know, and you know, I don't— I still do deep work and I don't have the heart pain anymore.
[00:39:51] Jessica Denise Dickson: And it's. Well fancy that.
[00:39:54] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.
[00:39:54] Jessica Denise Dickson: There was a way.
[00:39:56] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm yeah.
[00:39:56] Jessica Denise Dickson: and now I know, but I wish that I had known, you know, especially a lot of therapists, there aren't enough black therapists to work with all the black people who are looking for, or actively seeking therapy. And if white practitioners are not doing this kind of work, having a conversation about how you heal this thing without looking at how it's systemically upheld,
[00:40:26] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm yeah.
[00:40:30] Jessica Denise Dickson: it's gonna create like a situation where the person is being gaslighted. Gaslit? Gaslighted? Whatever the past tense is or—
[00:40:41] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Well, and I think the managing of your own reactivity, like as a practitioner, is so crucial. And I think that people don't really, like white people, don't really think about that level of reactivity around certain other identities. Right? So like, I don't know. I I'm just like— I have so many thoughts going through my head at the same time. Um, but I think that's why— and I'll be honest, like, it feels really easy for me to just be resistant and to listen to that.
[00:41:24] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah.
[00:41:25] Steph Barron Hall: you know, instead of going into the work that is actually really important andwill bring equity and like, what does that actually look like?
[00:41:32] Steph Barron Hall: And for me, one of the reasons why I wanted to take your course is because, well— One, I was like, I want to create more space for people to like be able to bring their full self in these conversations. And I don't want them to feel like they're gonna like offend me or do something like that.
[00:41:53] Steph Barron Hall: And I'm working on my own stuff, so I'm not bringing that in dropping it on my client's lap. I absolutely cannot be doing this type of work if I don't truly deeply invest in it myself, because it is going to be spiritual bypassing and just go terribly wrong for everyone.
[00:42:15] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Agreed. Agreed. It's it's just, uh! It's so important because, you know, I think about the people of color who are trying to get into the Enneagram who really want to do some of the deeper work and they don't find themselves in the descriptions.
[00:42:43] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:42:43] Jessica Denise Dickson: And then seasoned teachers, quote, unquote or older teachers almost will invalidate different ways of teaching the types
[00:42:55] Steph Barron Hall: Hmmmm
[00:42:56] Jessica Denise Dickson: that don't sound like a white male.
[00:42:59] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:43:01] Jessica Denise Dickson: and it does not leave space for people to be.
[00:43:07] Steph Barron Hall: mm-hmm
[00:43:08] Jessica Denise Dickson: What does a black male type four look like? They're probably not “wearing scarves when scarves are not popular”, which is what I heard a teacher talking about as they were talking about typing. Like “Fours like to wear scarves, even when they're not popular.” Like, Okay. Probably not. You're probably not gonna see that. Like I mean, I have, yeah, already. I'm like, wait, wait, what? but they might have this fantasy world about playing with a, you know, maybe a dead NBA player or their fantasy life might, you know what I mean? Like what might their, the ways that their type function and filter through their identities?
[00:43:57] Jessica Denise Dickson: Probably gonna be a little bit different than the, “oh, I'm so special. I don't, I'm gonna wear a scarf when no one else is.” Like that doesn't even come close. So there has to be space for people to be in the exploration of that so they can come to themselves.
[00:44:14] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm Yeah. And I think I've also just observed, a lot more like what other people might call like shape shifting in the image management sense. And so they're like, “oh, you're a three.” And it's like, no, no, no, this is a survival mechanism. So I'm not a three just because I shape shift in these different scenarios.
[00:44:38] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yes, exactly. Oh my gosh. That's the thing.
[00:44:43] Steph Barron Hall: Tell us the thing, because I really wanna hear.
[00:44:49] Jessica Denise Dickson: I was actually talking to a group of women of color last night. And, often I talk about like sending in the representative and I'm talking to women of color, cuz we all have one and it is like the, “Oh, hello. How are you? I hope that you're having a great day”, like the perfect tone. That's just high pitched enough to let you know that I am happy and I am a safe person and everything's gonna be okay. So there's the representative that we often send in and you don't have to be a three for that. Again, it's much like shifting into like the self-preservation, you might not even be self-preservation dominant.
[00:45:30] Jessica Denise Dickson: That is my last. And I still shift into it when I'm walking into a white space, cuz I need to be able to be vigilant enough to know whether I'm safe or not.
[00:45:41] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Mm-hmm
[00:45:41] Jessica Denise Dickson: and what level of protection and walls that I need to put up. Okay, like what does it look like for me, as an Eight to wield my power in this space. It might mean not saying a lot.
[00:45:56] Jessica Denise Dickson: It might mean being like the opposite of like the descriptions of the type eight. Because if I know that that's going actually cause me more harm, then I'm not gonna be like the megalomaniac that, you know, like HR described as like, no. That would be foolish and that could cause harm or death.
[00:46:16] Steph Barron Hall: Mmm-hmm
[00:46:17] Jessica Denise Dickson: You know, harm by like potentially losing a job. Like back when I worked, you know, and I mean, I still have a job at the YMCA, shout out to the YMCA. But you know, running my own business now, I mean, back then it's like, I had to make sure that I said things in the right tone, in the right way with the exact right words or else I would be invalidated. And so, yeah, it doesn't— being able to you know, code switch and shape shift, they are part of our strength and our skill, not necessarily just an Enneagram type.
[00:46:59] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Yes, that is so, so very clear. Even like what it looks like for women of that type, what it looks like,
[00:47:11] Jessica Denise Dickson: Can I just say like women type fives look so different than like the reclusive like nerdy type five that is often the description and I'm just like— every time I'm with one of my type five loves, I'm like, “Ugh, you're like a bomb to my soul. Like you are not that. Like, I don't even know how you landed on your type if you, you know, with those things at play.
[00:47:39] Steph Barron Hall: But I also, you know, in general, I also think that like a lot of us are not just like, you could peel us off the page and, we're like exactly that, you know? I mean, I've definitely been told, you know, I'm not confident enough to be a three or I'm not, um, or I'm too emotional to be a three.
[00:48:01] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. That's why even when I'm teaching the Enneagram, I teach a few things. I teach the motivations, the core fear, the core desire, and then I teach the types reactivity through the passion, through the fixation, through the defense mechanism. And I give some suggestions on what that might look like. And I leave the exploration of that up to people, which is why people ask me if I'm gonna write a book.
[00:48:25] Jessica Denise Dickson: And I mean, yes. But I think that if I do and when I do it will likely be on how to critically think about things and how to critically think about yourself, because you don't need a description telling you all of these things. You don't need someone to tell you how you're supposed to look as a certain type.
[00:48:49] Jessica Denise Dickson: If you can find yourself, in the core motivations and in the reactivity, then that's your type. And you know, a lot of people get really, I mean, cuz the type three especially, is often taught like the white male CEO in a power suit and the threes I know are like, “That's not me. Must not be me.”
[00:49:13] Jessica Denise Dickson: and it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's not the only expression of that type.
[00:49:20] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Or like the type three that just wants to work 80 hour weeks. I'm like, I don't want to work at all if possible. So can we, uh, can we figure that out?
[00:49:35] Jessica Denise Dickson: Right. Success is in the eye of the type three. You know, it's like thinking of it just as like career success or working hard in that way. I'm like, that's not, it ain't necessarily, so,
[00:49:50] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.
[00:49:51] Jessica Denise Dickson: in the song lyric, you know?
[00:49:53] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:49:54] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah.
[00:49:54] Steph Barron Hall: When, it comes to like at the beginning, I know that you mentioned lust, the passion of type eight lust. When did you learn what that really meant? And how was it different, I guess, from like how you've seen it taught or like kind of the assumption that you might have come to it with.
[00:50:17] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. Um, I'm not sure it was, I was still in Florida. So it had to have been— I'm thinking about when I moved. Before 2015 so a bit ago, um, maybe 2014. Yeah, I don't remember exactly, but I was, I like dove into Enneagram study, so I read like 20 books in a summer. Just cuz that's who I am. You read like a book a week, so. Or I'm sorry, more than one book a week. So who am I to say? You know
[00:50:58] Steph Barron Hall: No no no, not always. [laughter]
[00:51:00] Jessica Denise Dickson: But I think when I realized that it was more, it was more about like this lust for life, this Gusto, this energetic move to wanting more and wanting things more intense. I was like, “Oh, okay. Yes.” And it can be sexual, but it's not, you know, it's not necessarily, it's just like every time I teach the type sevens, I always joke that, you know, they're not responsible for the obesity epidemic just because their passion is gluttony. You know, it's like much more than that, you know? I do think that—
[00:51:35] Steph Barron Hall: It’s the excess.
[00:51:36] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah, the Enneagram can, you know, the world could use an overhaul in language, I think in a lot of ways. So that we don't have to try to do all the work to, you know, explain things that people already have a concept of.
[00:51:54] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah.
[00:51:55] Jessica Denise Dickson: Um,
[00:51:56] Steph Barron Hall: Like, like type seven, the virtue of sobriety. It's like, no, no, no. I'm not saying that you can never have alcohol again. We're not even talking about alcohol or substances, which we could be. That's a different conversation, but like, let's talk about like, what does it mean to be of sober mind in the sense of being grounded?
[00:52:19] Steph Barron Hall: Like what does that look like? And, yes. So definitely. And then I think also, well, I actually love the virtue of innocence for Eights. Um, just like the freshness of that. And like the softness. I think that for a lot of people though, if the passion and the virtue are the first thing that they come across at the Enneagram, they're like, what? No.
[00:52:49] Jessica Denise Dickson: Right. Oh my gosh. Especially the virtue of innocence Eights are like, what? This is much like the defense mechanism, like people— I'm like defense mechanisms are the hardest thing to see. So don't worry about it. Like the point is you exploring how they show up, because they are meant to be a defense. So you do not fall apart.
[00:53:06] Jessica Denise Dickson: Like that's what their point is. But between that and the virtues people are like, oh yeah, that's definitely, that's definitely not like, in a sense, like the one thing that an Eights avoids is like, if you teach them that straight up— and when I'm teaching it, I do call it the point of freedom. Because for me, it is like these moments where you're truly free, like where you're just like living in liberation and it may last a moment.
[00:53:34] Jessica Denise Dickson: It may last, you know, a season, but when I'm in innocence, there's something that is really, really special about those moments when I'm just like in pure joy, purely in pure presence, just like not worried about anything else, not having an agenda, not wondering if someone is coming behind my back, like not having to worry about where the power— it's just like this pure, pure, pure place.
[00:54:02] Jessica Denise Dickson: And I love it. I was actually just talking to another Eight, in my IG DMS, Christy, and we were talking about another Hamilton song, the song Dear Theodosia. And it is the song that Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton are singing to their new, new babies. And to me, it is like the— it is like the poster child of innocence.
[00:54:29] Jessica Denise Dickson: They're talking about creating this new nation and what they'll be able to take on and how they want to do good for these precious little, like what will you become and what will the world become? And it's just like, to me, like pure creation and pure of just like protection of the innocent like, you know, we'll make it right for you.
[00:54:55] Jessica Denise Dickson: We'll pass it on to you and then you'll take it on. And it's just like this all like the hope of it. I'm like, Ugh, it just like guts me every time. Every single time I hear it. I'm surprised that I'm not in tears now. Um, but it just touches a deep part in me. And knowing that, you know, as an Eight, we really wanna leave something. We really wanna make a difference in the world. And our energy goes out so much because that's such a priority is we want to touch the world. So we have big energy that goes out and wants to touch everything and tries to touch everything and maybe does touch everything.
[00:55:31] Jessica Denise Dickson: But it is all from this place of like wanting to make an impact, wanting to know that you're doing something that matters, that carries weight. And anyway, that is just like just a beautiful, beautiful, I think representation of that. And as is just a song that's being sung to these babies. I love it.
[00:55:54] Jessica Denise Dickson: I love it. Thank you for listening to my rant.
[00:55:57] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. It's such a beautiful image. And I also think it's funny because for me to be able to say like, I love the virtue of innocence for Eight. That's how, you know, I'm not an Eight, right? Because like, I'm not like I love the virtue of veracity for threes, you know what I mean? Um, and I think, because it just takes so long in this work, and I know that you were just mentioning, like, you first kind of started identifying it in yourself, the passion in 2015, so it's six, seven years later.
[00:56:32] Steph Barron Hall: Right? And, and this is like the place that you're at. And I think that is something that we just expect to move so much quicker
[00:56:40] Jessica Denise Dickson: yeah.
[00:56:41] Steph Barron Hall: and it just doesn't.
[00:56:44] Steph Barron Hall: And it doesn't mean that all the other stuff goes away. It's just, you're better at spotting it now.
[00:56:48] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. And it's not supposed to be fast. Yeah.
[00:56:52] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.
[00:56:52] Jessica Denise Dickson: It's not supposed to be. We're in our hearts, we're in our bodies. You know, the head tries to process things as quickly as possible and move things through things as quickly as possible. And that has its own value. And when we get into the heart and we get into the body, they beckon us to slow down.
[00:57:15] Steph Barron Hall: yeah,
[00:57:16] Jessica Denise Dickson: and to be present.
[00:57:21] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.
[00:57:23] Jessica Denise Dickson: And there's so much there that is awaiting that call. If we, if we answer it.
[00:57:29] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. So what I'm hearing you say for all the Threes and Eights out there is don't try to do any Enneagram work harder.
[00:57:42] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. I mean, I try to just do it as hard as possible and then I'm like, oh, I think I— I think I missed it.
[00:57:54] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. I'm way far past the point here.
[00:57:59] Jessica Denise Dickson: It is too real, too real, too real. Yeah. No, you're you are, you are meant to do it slowly. You are meant to take it, take it as a gift of slowing you down intentionally and you know, getting to know other parts of yourself is not so bad, even if it's scary, even if it feels like— cuz the slowness makes you feel like you're gonna lose something, you know, it makes you feel like, oh, there's something wrong with me.
[00:58:29] Jessica Denise Dickson: Like why am I not— And I used to feel that way and I've had a very slow January and it's been lovely. I've like not really done a lot, really loved it. Just kind of like resting when I need to rest. And before when I've had seasons like this, my type eight was like, like just, “ahhhh!”
[00:58:56] Jessica Denise Dickson: there was much ferocity in that and you know, it's like, and now I'm like, oh wow. I can see that passed me would've been like freaking out and currently is like, cuz often Eights equate who we are with what we do. And if we're not then doing, it's like, wait, do I exist? Am I— you know?
[00:59:25] Jessica Denise Dickson: And so, um, it's like, yeah. Okay, cool. I'm not doing anything and I still matter.
[00:59:34] Steph Barron Hall: I'm still here, still making an impact just by being a human.
[00:59:38] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. It's beautiful. Those, I still sometimes would rather be a robot. I'll be honest.
[00:59:43] Steph Barron Hall: Like 100% efficiency?
[00:59:45] Jessica Denise Dickson: just like 100% like no emotions, none of the messiness. But then when I lean into it, I'm like, oh my God, I love the messiness because that is where like the truth really is. And uh, I'm just, I'm more complex than I want to be.
[01:00:03] Steph Barron Hall: Aren't we all.
[01:00:05] Jessica Denise Dickson: Right?
[01:00:06] Steph Barron Hall: I think though, I love type Eight coaches and therapists and, and because it's the ability to be uncomfortable can obviously be a challenge at times, because like you were saying earlier, you really leaned into the, that pain and you're like, this is what it's like to do any great work, but also the ability to be uncomfortable in holding space for people, um, like having them walk through really difficult things.
[01:00:37] Steph Barron Hall: And you're just like, yeah. Let's do it, you know, we're going there. That’s so beautiful.
[01:00:41] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. I used to have a friend who would make fun of me because if someone was saying that something, they were going through something hard, I would just be with them and be like, “dude, like that really sucks.” And he's like, he thought, and to him, like, I should be like trying to fix it or offering, you know, something else.
[01:01:01] Jessica Denise Dickson: And I'm like, what can I do besides be with them and acknowledge and affirm how horrible that is. And, but that's part of like the superpower is being able to hold it and like the depth of it and how gnarly it can be and how jarring and offputting these pain and these hurts can be, but that's like, I can be with it and I can hold you in it.
[01:01:30] Jessica Denise Dickson: And that's what I'm here for. And so without acknowledging how much it sucks, like, what are we gonna, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? There's nothing else to do
[01:01:41] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Well, and I think that is a great transition into the type of work that you do. So tell me about, you know, what you're really passionate about. Like who do you work with the most and what do you, what do you do?
[01:01:54] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah. This is a, always as an ever-evolving question, but I do Enneagram work. I do liberation work and anti-racism work. And I support people in their embodiment practice. And so, because one of the things is that white supremacy has dehumanized and disembodied us, and it would rather we not be connected to our bodies.
[01:02:26] Jessica Denise Dickson: And so in order to heal, wounds of oppression are wounds of the body. So in order for us to heal oppression wounds, we actually need to be in touch with the body. If the person, the white-bodied person is disconnected from their own body, how can they actually love black and brown people? It's almost impossible.
[01:02:47] Jessica Denise Dickson: It becomes a performative act which often leads to harm within the communities that don't need more harm. And so it starts from, you know, us being able to reclaim our humanity, you know, to get in a relationship with our bodies, to be in touch with our sensations. I support, you know, I primarily work with women, I will say. and I just love it. Um, but the work that we do is really looking at how, how are you shaped and how are you then shaping the world?
[01:03:25] Jessica Denise Dickson: So how are you shaped by your identities? How are you shaped by your Enneagram type? How are you shaped by whiteness and white supremacy? And then how are you shaping those things? And what does it look like for you to unravel yourself from those things? And so that you can empower yourself to, you know, maybe live a different life, you know, to be more, to be more human.
[01:03:51] Jessica Denise Dickson: Like I said, sometimes I would much rather just be a robot, but humanity is actually where it's at. And when I'm in touch with my humanity, I love it. I truly do love it. Now, it takes a while for me to, but that's part of the journey. Yeah, so I run groups and I do one-on-one work. And I work with organizations who are interested in doing Enneagram work or anti-racism work or both together.
[01:04:22] Jessica Denise Dickson: Because honestly like it's hard to do anti-racism work without the Enneagram. The Enneagram provides us so much around our own personal stuff. Yeah, because when we are doing anti-racism work, the things that pop up for us are gonna be our types reactivity. It's gonna be our dominant instinct feeling.
[01:04:42] Jessica Denise Dickson: Like if I lose privilege, then I actually am unsafe when really like losing privileges it's not really a thing because we we're still in these— So it's like a, it's like not even a, something that people actually have to be concerned about. Right? And so it's just like looking at really what is being threatened right now.
[01:05:07] Jessica Denise Dickson: It's all part of that Enneagram work. So the Enneagram gives a beautiful frame for being able to actually start to look at my individual role and what my actual individual place is in a more collective conversation. So we are always just kind of diving in to all of that in those spaces.
[01:05:32] Steph Barron Hall: I love it. And where can people find you?
[01:05:36] Jessica Denise Dickson: Probably the best place is my Instagram, cuz I'm like always on Instagram scrolling or playing solitaire. That's like all I do with my life. So all right, now I'm on a Marvel cinematic universe kick as well. So if you wanna DM me about that, you know, and you're like a nerd, like if you're gonna DM me about it, I want you to be like really nerdy about it because I'm so nerdy about it.
[01:06:02] Jessica Denise Dickson: That, I mean, just the movies though. I'm not nerdy about the comics. So you might be disappointed that I'm not nerdy enough, but I'm just giving all the disclaimers. But I would love to hear from you.
[01:06:16] Steph Barron Hall: I love it so much. So @JessicaDDickson, right? And then @JessicaDDicksonCoaching. I’ll link those.
[01:06:19] Jessica Denise Dickson: yeah, you could come to either. I'm a little bit more spicy on my personal page. So, you know,
[01:06:25] Steph Barron Hall: I follow both.
[01:06:26] Jessica Denise Dickson: yeah, if you like the
[01:06:27] Steph Barron Hall: is what it is.
[01:06:28] Jessica Denise Dickson: If you like all the personal stuff about me, because I am a human being, come on over to my personal page. If you just want business follow my coaching page.
[01:06:39] Steph Barron Hall: love it
[01:06:39] Jessica Denise Dickson: Yeah.
[01:06:40] Steph Barron Hall: Okay. Final two questions. What is a book that helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year?
[01:06:49] Jessica Denise Dickson: So can I say two?
[01:06:51] Steph Barron Hall: Yep.
[01:06:51] Jessica Denise Dickson: Great one is Healing Developmental Trauma by Heller and LaPierre. It is based on the NARM model, NeuroAffective Relational Model. And it is about how our attachment creates these adaptive styles. And there are five adaptive styles and my friend who, um, she's a therapist and she's trained in it.
[01:07:20] Jessica Denise Dickson: I was processing some things that I had talked about with my coach. And she was like, “well, this sounds a lot like this kind of adaptive style.” And so me being who I am immediately got the book listened to it in a day, and was like, “oh my gosh, how is this so me?” and it really fueled some of the deepest healing that I've ever done in my life. So that is one that I would recommend, that I mean, yeah, that was so deep. So beautiful, understood things, had language for things that I knew were my experience, but I didn't know how to put them into words. So love, love, love that book. Another one is The Invitation and it's a poem by Oriah Mountain Dreamer.
[01:08:09] Jessica Denise Dickson: She also just made it into a book. But the poem itself is gorgeous, but the book I listened to so many times and have read so many times, and it just like opened my heart and in a way that I did not know needed to be opened. And it's really about like being true to who you are and how do you stand in truth regardless of how people feel about it.
[01:08:42] Jessica Denise Dickson: and regardless of whether it's even the best decision for you but there is something about it that leads me back to my heart, into being human every single time. And yeah, those were probably the two most impactful books besides the Women Who Run with the Wolves, which I read several times last year as well.
[01:09:03] Jessica Denise Dickson: So I guess that was three.
[01:09:06] Steph Barron Hall: okay. You've really cheated now. just kidding.
[01:09:09] Jessica Denise Dickson: you know what type I'm a type Eight, we don't always follow directions.
[01:09:16] Steph Barron Hall: I love it. okay. And then last question. What is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?
[01:09:23] Jessica Denise Dickson: I love this question. I heard this at a conference when I was still in higher ed and I still lived in Florida. So probably 2013, 2014. And, Lua Hancock was giving a keynote and she says, don't make a decision until a decision—there's a decision to be made. And cuz I could overthink—
[01:09:48] Steph Barron Hall: Hmm.
[01:09:48] Jessica Denise Dickson: everything, anything. Uh, literally everything , I'm an overthinker by nature. And when she said that there was this permission that I didn't know that I needed to be given to just chill the fuck out.
[01:10:03] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah
[01:10:04] Jessica Denise Dickson: And it has stuck with me when I get overthinking. When I really get into my head, it just helps me stay in the moment
[01:10:15] Steph Barron Hall: yeah.
[01:10:16] Jessica Denise Dickson: and not just run off to the future in some way.
[01:10:19] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm So then I guess this is another question. Are you, do you find yourself to be very decisive in general?
[01:10:28] Jessica Denise Dickson: Mm-hmm
[01:10:29] Steph Barron Hall: but you just overthink first.
[01:10:31] Jessica Denise Dickson: yeah. Oh yeah. All the time
[01:10:34] Steph Barron Hall: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. That's such good advice. I love it.
[01:10:39] Jessica Denise Dickson: yeah. I am decisive and I overthink it's like this, this, uh, I think the more, the more work I've done, the more I'm thoughtful I am about what I overthink but I think too, like, um, being raised in church, there was so much around like making the right decision in God's will. So there's just so much anxiety that I had in those, in those years that there was so much overthinking,
[01:11:15] Steph Barron Hall: Mm-hmm yeah, that makes sense.
[01:11:17] Jessica Denise Dickson: yeah.
[01:11:20] Steph Barron Hall: yeah. Well maybe that's a whole ‘nother podcast episode.
[01:11:26] Jessica Denise Dickson: Oh yes, absolutely.
[01:11:30] Steph Barron Hall: Well, thanks so much for being here. I've done a few of these recordings so far. Haven't laughed as much in any of them. So thank you for that. And thank you for bringing all your wisdom and brilliance really appreciate you.
[01:11:42] Jessica Denise Dickson: Thanks for having me.
[01:11:46] Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected, sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram @ninetypesco to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you.
[01:12:15] I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me.
[01:12:23] Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon.
[01:12:29] The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of Nine Types Co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Dr Dream Chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify.
