Using the Enneagram in Therapy as a Client: Bonus Episode
Welcome back to Enneagram IRL, the weekly podcast where we go beyond Enneagram theory and dive into practical understanding, new clarity, and fresh insight.
This week’s bonus episode is about using the Enneagram in therapy as a client. I talk about my experience as a therapy client and a professional coach with the goal of empowering you to use the Enneagram in your own growth work in a way that you believe is best for you.
To join the conversation and catch a brief rundown of the "Do's & Don'ts of using the Enneagram in therapy" (also mentioned in this bonus episode), click below!
View Part One Here & View Part Two Here
I've seen many therapists, but none of them have used the Enneagram as a core part of their practice. These "dos" and "don'ts" are my personal guidelines and opinions based on my experiences of drawing on my Enneagram knowledge as a therapy client while meeting with a therapist who isn't into the Enneagram.
Looking for our key takeaways?
What if my therapist doesn’t find the Enneagram useful?
Do’s and Don’ts of using the Enneagram in therapy
What’s the difference between therapy & coaching?
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Typing Interview: https://ninetypes.co/typing-session
Book a Discovery Call https://ninetypes.co/coaching
Follow on IG @ninetypesco
Email me! hello@ninetypes.co
Enneagram Resources for you!
Want to keep the conversation going? Join me on Instagram @ninetypesco to keep learning and chatting about how our types show up in REAL LIFE!
Learn more about subtypes! Download my free subtypes guide here.
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Listen to the Episode
Read the Full, Unabridged Transcript
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in Real Life. A podcast that will help you go beyond Enneagram theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram professional,
[00:00:26] and ennea-curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show. Hello, welcome back to Enneagram IRL. Today is our bonus episode. So the first Thursday of every month we get to hang out just you and me. We're going to talk about Some of the topics that have come up throughout the week or the month and maybe from the podcast, maybe from Instagram, but just some things that have come up and
[00:01:01] Just doing a little bit of a deeper dive on them. So this week's Topic actually came from Instagram. So this is something that I've been thinking about a lot. And if you listened to this Tuesday's episode with Camille Logan, you heard us talk a lot about the Enneagram and therapy and in general, most of the podcasts episodes that I've recorded so far have been with therapists or coaches, because I think those are the people who really love the Enneagram that I know.
[00:01:30] And those are the people who I have in my circle. As it happens, a lot of my friends are either therapists or coaches. So this comes up a lot. But I also think it's something I hear a lot from You, from my community. I hear people asking, well, how do I use the Enneagram in therapy, especially, you know, if my therapist is not into it.
[00:01:51] And so. Like many of you therapy has been instrumental in my healing over the last few years I have been in and out of therapy since I was probably 12 or 13. Um, and More out than in, I'd say over all, but over the last couple of years, I've definitely consistently been in therapy and it's been just really useful for me.
[00:02:13] And it's funny sometimes because I get messages on Instagram from people saying things like, wow, you're really helping to decrease the stigma around going to therapy. And it's funny only because, I mean, that's, it's not funny, but It's just a strange thing for me to hear, because to me I'm like “What stigma?”
[00:02:31] You know, that feels so 10 or 20 years ago in a lot of ways, but I think that it still exists. And so it's something that I want to talk about more just because I feel like it's such a basic part of health and wellness overall. So. Today, I am going to talk about that. I am an unequivocal proponent of therapy, I believe in therapy wholeheartedly, and I am not a therapist. So today I'm going to talk with you.
[00:02:59] From the perspective of someone who is a coach, who has a certain level of expertise in a specific topic. But first and foremost as a therapy client. So I'll talk a little bit more about coaching later in the episode, but this first section, I just want to talk with you a little bit about how to use the Enneagram in therapy when you are the client. And whether or not your therapist knows about it.
[00:03:25] If your therapist knows the Enneagram really well, and you know, the Enneagram well, you know, you probably already have kind of a rhythm down, but what I want to focus on a little bit more is how to use the Enneagram in therapy. If your therapist either doesn't know the Enneagram or, you know, they kind of dismiss it.
[00:03:44] Um, And how I've gone about doing that in my work with my different therapists that I've, that I've seen over the years. Um, and I will say this upfront that I have never worked with a therapist who specifically uses the Enneagram in their practice. So this is really coming from someone who does have a lot of Enneagram knowledge, but is
[00:04:07] A client with therapists who either don't know about it very deeply. Don't really like quote unquote, believe in it, or just don't use it as an integrated part of how they work with clients. So,
[00:04:19] With that some therapists love the Enneagram. I've met many therapists. Who learned about the Enneagram while in school to become a therapist or You know, in those sorts of contexts and it can be a fantastic tool, especially in contexts where there's naturally a lot of description happening. So what I mean by that is like, When you go into therapy and you say, You know, “this is how I function and this is what motivates me”, That's already a part of the therapy process and a lot of ways.
[00:04:52] Describing yourself in sharing. Some of those things with your therapist is already really a part of the process. Anyway. And I find that sometimes the Enneagram can be a really useful tool for people who want to be able to just sit down in their therapist's office and have this common language. They have a common framework. They can kind of use it as shorthand. So you're not having to describe all these different things. You can kind of pinpoint what are the things you need to work on. And a therapist who knows the Enneagram really well
[00:05:20] And is really fluent in it, can Work from that point. But what if Your Therapist doesn't find the Enneagram useful? Whether that's because they don't know it well enough to truly understand it, or they disagree with some of the core tenants around the way that personality is formed. Or they simply haven't found it useful. You know, a lot of therapists start into it.
[00:05:43] And I've heard from coaching clients and friends and my community that therapists sometimes dismiss that interest in the Enneagram. I've experienced this as well, and it can be incredibly invalidating
[00:05:55] and I also just want to highlight here that therapists often have reasons for not wanting to use it, whether it's because they just don't buy into it in general, or because they just want to hear what you think about yourself in your own words.
[00:06:09] Either way, this is not intended to shame or devalue therapists who don't want to use the Enneagram. That's totally fine. I just want to offer a few suggestions on how it can help you as a client.
[00:06:21] So first. I really recommend using the Enneagram to describe your experience. What have you learned about yourself That you can share with your therapist. When I'm using the Enneagram in this way, I don't actually use the Enneagram language. I might say something like— and by the way, I'm a three here so, um,
[00:06:39] that'll be, that'll be useful to know— I might say something like I've been working on my own self image historically. I've relied on others to tell me who I am or what is true about me, but I'm wanting to develop a sense of self that's really focused on who I believe that I am. So that's a great starting point for a lot of therapy conversations, and that could be an entire outcome or goal that you work on developing with your therapist. And in fact, that's something that I worked with a therapist on.
[00:07:08] Another example could be, you know, maybe I've been hard on myself because I believed that I had to perform perfectly to get love And I just don't know how to change this. That could be another, you know, type three example. Or even this one, which is a direct example from my therapy session. And this is actually giving a piece of guidance, about myself to, to my therapist.
[00:07:30] Um, so I said, when I share something in our sessions, it's typically because it's really bothering me. And sometimes my external expression of emotion doesn't match how strongly I really feel beneath the surface. So if you see some emotion coming up, chances are I'm internally feeling it much, much stronger.
[00:07:48] And I might just need a little help kind of unlocking that and expressing it more freely. So that was a really helpful piece of guidance that I offered to my therapist. When I didn't feel like she was getting how hard something was for me or how impactful something was for me. And I needed her to like slow down a little bit and notice some of those nuances.
[00:08:06] So these examples are about my type and my insights about myself as a three, of course, but they're not specifically about the Enneagram. And in fact, I didn't need to say anything about the Enneagram at all, in order to share these. And so if your therapist isn't into the Enneagram, this is just a way to navigate that and still use those personal insights that you have, your self awareness that you've gained all the different thoughts and self-understanding, and self-acceptance that you've cultivated through your use of the Enneagram
[00:08:36] that can then inform the way that you communicate with your therapist on this topic. If your therapist is open to learning about the Enneagram That's great. And I can share a few of my favorite resources for that in the show notes here. Um, but it's also not entirely necessary I think.Therapists have all sorts of reasons, like I said, for not wanting to use the Enneagram. Um, and so even therapists who are aware of it or know about it,
[00:09:00] It might not be something that they think is important to bring up and that's totally okay. Um, so my perspective is more so, you know, Not controlling or influencing how other people are operating, but helping to equip you to go into these different spaces and to use this tool in the way that it's going to be most helpful for you.
[00:09:22] So I want to share a few do's and don'ts of using the Enneagram in therapy. Um, and Again, remember one I'm coming at this from the perspective of the client, Because it's, you know, I am a therapy client. So that's kind of the way that I'm thinking about it. And to these don't have to be completely true for everyone.
[00:09:42] Um, these are more guidelines. So if something's like, “oh, that doesn't really resonate with me.” That's totally fine. So, DO use the Enneagram to describe your experience? Like we just talked about drawing your insights that you've learned from the Enneagram and share those with their therapists. Even if you don't have to use the Enneagram language.
[00:09:58] Don't feel like you need to explain your whole type or the Enneagram system overall. Think about the most salient and resonant parts of your type and describe those things and how they impact you, how they influence you. Don't feel like you have to use Enneagram language to use the Enneagram. You don't have to say your type or anything else. Say what you've learned about yourself again, and what has stuck with you
[00:10:22] About what motivates you and, and those things are probably going to be the most helpful and will be the best guide for your therapist and for yourself. Do keep an open mind. The Enneagram types are archetypes. So your therapist might have a different perspective or suggestion as to why you do what you do, so entertaining and investigating those ideas is not abandoning the Enneagram, or it's not going against it at all. Therapists are often trained in a wide variety of modalities throughout their education.
[00:10:53] And they can draw from those modalities as well as different understandings of psychology and human development. So it doesn't really have to be the Enneagram or nothing, or, you know, a specific therapy modality or nothing. Just keep an open-minded be curious. And, and maybe there's something that your therapist is seeing in that session that, that you might not be seeing exactly.
[00:11:13] Don't get too stuck in using the Enneagram. So it can be a really useful tool. Like we all know we are here because we love the Enneagram. Um, and it can be helpful to build common language and it can be that, that shorthand of sorts, like we talked about, but it doesn't have to be the main point of conversation.
[00:11:32] So in coaching using the Enneagram, I've sometimes found that insisting on looking at yourself through a specific type lens, can cause a lack of recognition in other areas. So what I mean by this is,
[00:11:45] I had this interaction and I've had similar interactions with many different types, but I'm giving you a specific example here. This was not a client at all. This was somebody else, but, When we think about the Enneagram types, we often think of type Threes As the types who use others for personal gain. So if you think about that phrase “who on the Enneagram would use others for personal gain?”, we would think, “oh, threes do that.”
[00:12:10] Generally, I found that a lot of threes are like, “Oh, I can kind of have a tendency to do that. So let me check that. Let me think about that. You know, I've gotten a lot of feedback on that over time and now, you know, work through it or notice it processing differently. Um, identify where I am doing that, where I'm not doing that”, all those sorts of things.
[00:12:30] So obviously a lot of thought and feeling goes into that. But a five might think, well, I'm a five, not a three, so I don't use others for personal gain when in reality they might be doing that. But they just think because they're over-relying on the Enneagram That they don't. So just because you're a specific Enneagram type does not rule out
[00:12:52] Um, some of those behaviors that we often associate with other types, it might actually be keeping you stuck holding you back, being harmful toward others. And I think that's one of the things that can be really troubling about the Enneagram. When we focus on so much that we can't see, “oh, I am actually doing this really harmful thing
[00:13:10] that I normally associate with somebody else or some other type.” And it kind of creates that lack of awareness around that. Rather than being a tool to aluminate those things. Um, when we over-focus on our specific type we might kind of start to lose clarity around how we're actually operating and what actually is motivating us.So examples like this one can occur in coaching and I'm sure in therapy too. So that's kind of one of the cautions that I have here.
[00:13:40] So I'm sure there are more do's and don'ts that I could add, but those are the ones that come to mind immediately. Right now. I also want to add this other piece, which is, This sense of, um, concern that I have a little bit about the Enneagram with therapy. Um, and one of the challenges that I've experienced with coaching clients, typing clients, and even my Instagram community is related to therapists who are likely great therapists and other ways, but are just not well versed enough in the Enneagram to use it effectively.
[00:14:13] I've seen this with so many people who have been told by a therapist that they're not the type that they think they are, or the therapist has Bluntly said, you are this type In particular. And in general, I don't find that insisting someone is a specific type to be helpful. Even in my typing interviews, I end the interview by suggesting
[00:14:33] a most likely subtype or two based on the evidence presented throughout the conversation. But ultimately I always want to put the power back in the client's hands to tell me what type they are for certain.
[00:14:45] When my clients come to our sessions and share that their therapist has insisted that there a specific type. It typically occurs when the therapist doesn't really know the tool well enough to understand all the little nuances and to understand that whether they are correct about that person's type or not
[00:15:03] statements insisting that they're a specific type Leave the client feeling misunderstood and alienated. And we never want to put clients in a situation where they have to defend themselves and they have to defend who they believe that they are. I think that that can be really challenging and I think it can be really harmful to that relationship.
[00:15:24] I find the self discovery part of the Enneagram to be one of the most important and empowering skills to build. So I think that is Really Important. And it actually takes precedence. Um, in my, in my mind, over being correctly typed,
[00:15:41] And I think, I want to be Really sensitive in the way that I talk about this because, um, I have a lot of friends who are therapists, like I've said, and. I don't think that therapists are in general out there trying to make their clients feel Alienated or harmed in any sense they're doing everything we possibly can to help their client.
[00:16:04] So I kind of want to be sensitive about that and also say that maybe that specific use of the Enneagram is more harmful than it is helpful.
[00:16:13] Like with a lot of things with working with people one-on-one It is really sacred work. And so if back to the client's perspective with this, I think If a therapist does say something like that to you that makes you feel alienated or invalidated. I think it's okay to share. You know what, actually, I don't think that's
[00:16:33] my true type or, um, you know, actually that makes me feel a little bit misunderstood or, or addressing that with them. Aand being able to kind of move on if possible. Um, therapists make mistakes too, and that's okay. And it's kind of part of the relational process. And sometimes working through those pieces of conflict can be really, really helpful overall for Kind of developing the self in general.
[00:16:57] And in my experience, finding a therapist who is well versed in the Enneagram and integrates it well into their practice can be challenging. And that's not because those therapists don't exist, but because it's typically, if you go on Psychology Today, You're not, you know, able to check off the box, Enneagram informed or something like that.
[00:17:15] So it can be challenging. And I found for me, it's important to work with someone who has a really, really deep understanding of the integral system and the archetypal structures of the types, rather than simply a working knowledge. a working knowledge might be good For a certain spaces, but, um, in this specific space for me in particular, I don't find that to be enough. And as a result, I have a coach that I work with specifically around the Enneagram and a therapist with whom I meet for other topics. Most recently I've been using brainspotting therapy and internal family systems. And that combination has worked really well for me.
[00:17:49] And of course there is the topic of privilege here because my, this is only feasible to meet with both the coach and a therapist because my health insurance Covers therapy. So I recognize that's not always available on all health insurance plans in all locations. And I know that not everyone has health insurance.But for me, Um, that's the way that I've set it up.
[00:18:09] Because of the type of work that I do, I read a lot about different therapy modalities and mental health diagnoses and various aspects of therapy work
[00:18:18] Based on that research just because I'm so fascinated by it. I chose therapy modalities that I thought would work well for me and sought therapists who offered those in particular. This really isn't a requirement at all though. And it's something that I've found is helpful for me at this juncture, but
[00:18:36] especially if you're first starting out with therapy, it might not be the best approach. You might find descriptions of certain therapy processes appealing, but then really dislike them. Once you begin, same with the Enneagram, you might think, “oh, I really want to use the Enneagram in therapy.” And then you might get into it and be like, actually, this is not for me.
[00:18:51] And. I think that's, it's okay To keep an open mind and change your mind about that. Just because you don't like using the Enneagram therapy doesn't mean you don't like the Enneagram. It just might not be the right tool.
[00:19:03] For me when I first, you know, Went back to therapy a few years ago Um, after a bit of a hiatus, I Thought I knew exactly what I wanted and I ended up needing something different altogether. So find a therapist that you can trust and trust that they will bring the best approach to treating whatever issues that are coming up for you. So don't be afraid to give them feedback. But especially if you're just starting out, know that change doesn't happen overnight. It will take time. Things will unfold as they need to. And Working with that therapist and building the relationship that you need with that therapist is probably going to be the most impactful and helpful thing for you.
[00:19:42] As someone who has been in and out of therapy at various points. Please know that every therapist won't be a perfect fit for you. And that's okay. So what matters most is the relationship you have with your therapist as you're working together.
[00:19:55] And again, this comes from the perspective of just The client, somebody who has, um, Maybe like a bit more understanding of therapy than the average Joe, but I'm not a therapist myself. So I Just want to reiterate, you know, what, I've, what I've learned in my research and my conversations with therapists in my conversations with my friends and, and in my conversations with
[00:20:22] My own therapist and coaches myself. So I hope that's somewhat of an encouragement to you. But today, I think What the other thing that this topic brought up for me is the difference between therapy and coaching. So people also ask me this all the time, and I think that there are a lot of distinctions. I think it's really important here to
[00:20:46] understand how they can both be independently useful or useful together. And in my perspective, one is not better than the other, I would say in general,
[00:20:58] The uses are, are really different. Um, there can be some overlap, but they're different. So therapists in general, focus on trauma as well as mental illness, diagnosis, and treatment. Whereas coaches do not focus on those things.
[00:21:12] Most of the time coaches who are well-trained Will Kind of highlight something or, point you back to, “Hey, have you considered therapy” or, or things like that because. There are noting that there is something there that is out of scope, and they're wanting to point you back to the resources so that you can get the help you need.
[00:21:31] There are different levels of licensure required For different types of therapists and Licensure has a lot of rules around it for good reason or therapists. So therapy is more regulated than coaching in general And it's also held to a higher standard of confidentiality.
[00:21:49] Many therapists will ask you about goals and what you're hoping to achieve through therapy. And others will just try to understand those outcomes, but we'll also treat whatever's right in front of them. So again, they're thinking more about treatment and diagnosis versus coaching, which is Using a different set of strategies.
[00:22:07] And my experience and research therapist tend to have more tools and treatment possibilities than coaches. Whereas coaches tend to be more specialized therapists, tend to have, you know, A wider swath of therapy specific education So if they can provide the treatment that they need to in a clinical setting and they have different continuing education requirements.
[00:22:30] Coaching is the sink from therapy in that it is largely unregulated. This can be a good thing. And that you can work with a coach who is located anywhere, even therapists who work virtually in the United States, can't offer therapy outside of their state of licenser typically. So there's a lot more flexibility in that sense when it comes to coaching.
[00:22:49] However, the fact that it's unregulated means that pretty much anyone can say they're a coach and I don't necessarily have a problem with this When the coach is competent in their specialization and gets results for their clients. One of the main assets I have as a coach is that I'm not in my client's head. So I naturally have a different perspective to offer, and I can highlight something that the client is not seeing. So that's kind of one of the main ways that coaching is really helpful.
[00:23:17] However, I'll also say that in my years of online business, I've certainly met quite a few people who say, for example, they're a business coach who have never actually successfully built a business. And that I think is kind of problematic. So I think that finding the person who, you know, has the specialization, or has the education or the competency.
[00:23:39] in what you need them to coach you on, I think that's really important. I personally don't want to be coached in business at this point by somebody who is maybe in year one. Of course, there are people who are in year, one of running a business that have fantastic insights and fantastic, you know, clarity and they're outside my brain. So maybe they're going to see things differently.
[00:24:03] But there might be more sophisticated problems that I'm having in my business at this point that that person might not know about yet Experientially. And it just might not work. Um, so that's an example. That's not a general rule, but it's just an example of how that can unfold.
[00:24:21] But with that said coaching in general has been an incredibly useful tool in my personal growth as the client. It's different from therapy in that working with the coach is more oriented around goal setting, moving forward and working with where I am. Versus therapy, which is often centered around upbringing, childhood issues, developmental issues, trauma, all of these different things like that, you know?
[00:24:43] So often coaches have a specific specialization and work within that scope. For example, you might have a health coach who helps you build healthy habits or like coach that helps you envision and build the life you want. Or you might have a career coach who helps you determine how you want to move forward in your career.
[00:25:01] All of these different spaces have different sort of specializations. And while there is some overlap, you don't typically find the same coach doing all of them. Versus a therapist who might offer, you know, a wide range of modalities, like CBT and EMDR or somatic experiencing and internal family systems. So there are all these different sorts of ways that they can be educated and they can kind of say, okay, I actually have
[00:25:25] Experience in a lot of these based on my education. Another difference is that typically coaches are trained to ask insightful, but not leading, questions That really engender new thoughts or ideas, whereas the way a therapist approaches the session is heavily dependent on the modality, but can sometimes include more statements or, you know, more observations and
[00:25:48] I find that typically coaching is more around the questioning. For what it's worth, Some people say that coaching is more directive than therapy, and then some people say the opposite. So I found that that really depends heavily on the training and the specific practitioner.
[00:26:02] Now, those are some general kind of high-level thoughts on that. And, really, again, This is not about one is better or worse or anything like that. It's not hierarchical.
[00:26:15] It's really about finding the right person who will fit your needs for what you need right now. And I will say as an entirely different factor here in my work, both as a coaching client and a coach myself. Enneagram coaching is different from some other coaching models. And that involves both that client-led
[00:26:36] goal setting and client-led discussion That most coaching models call for, but it also includes, you know, a good bit of Enneagram teaching. I often play the role of mirroring back to the client What they might not be seeing,
[00:26:51] or might not know yet about their type. I have to say, I love that the Enneagram has become so popular over the last few years, but I've also found that sometimes people don't actually know the Enneagram as deeply as they think they do. And that's fine. It's part of the process I've been there too.
[00:27:10] And I've learned along the way. But Enneagram coaching is one of the ways to offer some support and to fill in the gaps that might bridge you from your current thoughts to some brand new self-insight, that you haven't yet unlocked yet, simply because you didn't know about it. So I love that specific way of integrating teaching and coaching together, and really being able to pinpoint certain specific things based on your type.
[00:27:36] Even within Enneagram coaching, there can be a lot of specialization too. So you might find an Enneagram coach who specifically works with women or who specifically works with People with anxiety or, or these different things. I know for me, I love working with people who have really gotten stuck in like achiever mode doesn't mean that they're threes, but maybe they have
[00:27:59] You know, Played that achiever role throughout their life. And now they're wanting to do something different, but they're having a really hard time. Maybe they struggle with self-compassion or they Don't want to let go of their inner critic because they're afraid that they'll, you know, lose their edge, quote unquote. If they are kinder to themselves, I love working with people like that because I've been there too. And I think it can be really, really helpful. So I use the Enneagram within that lens, but
[00:28:25] It's a bit more specific, right? So I think all these things are really good to keep in mind. And again, I just want to use this episode to empower you to use the Enneagram in your inner work and your growth work and the way that is going to work best for you And the way that you think is going to be really supportive and helpful.
[00:28:45] And if you are considering getting Enneagram coaching and you want to work with me, I would love to chat with you. Um, I might have spots open depending on when you're listening to this episode. So the best way to find out is to book a call with me, which I'll link in the show notes below, or you can reach out to me on Instagram @ninetypesco or via email at hello@ninetypes.co. And either way, I'd love to chat with you.
[00:29:10] But overall, I have to say, this is certainly not the end of my thoughts on this topic. And I really hope that this episode was supportive for you. And you've already heard from coaches and therapists on Enneagram IRL so far. And so that will continue in the next episodes, um, as they roll out. So thanks so much for listening. Take good care. And I'll meet you right back here next week.
[00:29:34] Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of Enneagram IRL very soon.
[00:30:16] The Enneagram in Real Life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron Hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from Critz Collaborations. Thanks to Dr Dream Chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify.
